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What Do Non-Muslims Do?


By Ali Eteraz
Posted on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 09:47:20 AM EST
Tags: community (all tags)

I once asked that Western reform minded Muslims needed to coalition with those non-Muslims who advocated humanist liberal values. I haven't catalogued what such thoughts meant to Muslims, but I believe it had four different effects on non-Muslims:

  1. Don't bother inviting us. I don't care about your religion. I only care that your religion not be used a tool for violence against me. If you reformist Muslims can separate violence from your religion, kudos; if not, we masters of the Western Civilization aren't very forgiving, and we have big dicks guns.
  2. This letter is great. Look everyone, this Muslim guy thinks it is OK for non-Muslims to coerce Islam to reform itself. That's awesome. Ok, so listen up Muslims, I am emailing you a list of things you need to fix, so chop-chop. It includes violence, but also anti-semitism, women's rights, and your failure to patent technology. Oh, you need some help? Well, here are some ex-Muslims who are pretty good at complaining about the entire Muslim world. Start with them. So what that you don't give them any authority. We're saying you should. These ex-Muslims should be your role models in how to deal with your religion.
  3. Interesting letter. So this Muslim guy is doing work. He is an activist within his religion the way there are activists in every religion. Of course, Islam needs all the internal activists it can get. I hope the people he's promoting catch-on. If they do, that would alleviate Muslim violence, help take a step towards more rights for women and minorities, and would introduce positive elements of the Islamic Tradition to us (hold on, though, is it OK to say there is such a thing as an Islamic Tradition? I don't want to be offensive). Well, I don't know, these guys seem sincere and I'm curious. Let me watch and see what they do. If they ever seem down I suppose I can commend them.
  4. What is wrong with this Muslim guy? He's playing into the hands of the neo-cons and the Right. They will use his words to attack Muslims, extent the war to Iran, curtail Muslim civil liberties, and make Islam look backward. You know what? Eff him. If I ignore him, he'll go away. I can count on the NYTimes to do this with me because they think like me. Doesn't he know that violence and aggression are caused by poverty? If Muslims weren't so poor they wouldn't tolerate the violence they produce. Nor do I care if common sense and prominent studies disprove that. Someone get an NGO to get these people some money. Someone, anyone. It can't be me because I can't go and do social work and I'm not about to join the army. Ultimately there is nothing I can do except pump cash. Anyway, down with FGM, Save Darfur. Viva La Revolucion.

Positions 1 and 4 I can't work with. Position 2 is good in the ends it wants. I share those. It is not good in its method. It is combative, aggressive and angry. It is composed of self-identified neo-cons and Republicans or "hawks." this makes them very bad candidates for engaging with the Muslim communities. Muslims the world over associate aggression and disrespect towards these groups -- even if these groups contain wonderful individuals (and they do). So Position 2 I can work with on a limited bases, but certainly never for them -- which is too bad because this group has a lot of resources, a lot of range, and a lot of people. Muslims that do end up working with these groups get ignored, even if they are well intentioned (Stephen Schwartz). Position 2 is good for people like Irshad and Bridgitte Jibreel. Not me.

This means that only group 3 is left -- the only non-assertive group. The most reluctant. On one hand they feel very strongly about 'the good.' On the other hand they are very timid because they don't want to offend anyone.

Well group 3, today is your lucky day. I am saying to you that you fit in at Eteraz. We have a book club to learn you with and a wiki coming to refer you to. On top of that, here are some other projects that you can engage in:

  • Find and bring other Type 3 people here.
  • Talk to type 2's anywhere you can find them and argue with them as to why their methods are wrong. Use the reader diaries to ping them. Usually when Eteraz pings, people respond. If they don't, go tell them.
  • Go to places like Memri, Jihadwatch and LGF and keep us apprised of any reformist Muslims in trouble. Usually these sites are quite good at identifying such people, but do little or nothing to evaluate or help them. All self-styled reformists are not worth helping.
  • Identify and study those situations where Islam is not the problem. This will bring perspective to your thinking.
  • Use your language skills to translate stuff.
  • Word of mouth.

Finally, and most importantly, stop referring to yourself as "non-believer" or "non-Muslim." Screw that distinction. It is irrelevant. Not flouting your lack of Islam won't automatically turn you into a Muslim, so you can relax. If you're really that worried, make a Western sounding screename. Remember, you are simply a participant in a net roots project about Islam. It matters little what you believe, and more what you want to see occur. From my end, I will also stop talking in terms of Muslim/Non-Muslim and talk in terms of "we."

Extending the scope of our "we" is what Richard Rorty prescribed as the singular most important step in creating a world of solidarity. That is ultimately what we are working for. 

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categoryless?(none / 0) (#1)
by razib on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 10:10:04 AM EST

ali, i'm not sure if fit into these lists. yeah, everyone will prolly say that. i think perhaps i am closest to #3...but i have no problem offending :)

also, i'm cool with not saying i'm a non-muslim.  my atheism isn't equivalent to the identity of religious people in terms of how important it is, it is a negation, not an assertion of anything specific.that being said, i don't know how well this will work out, your own post is laced with implicit demarcation issues, muslim & non-muslim.



of course(none / 0) (#2)
by Ali Eteraz on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 10:16:52 AM EST

its laced with demarcation issues for now razib

hell, look @ the title. it contradicts the conclusion.

point is, ill have other thoughts on the subject. and eventually the demarcation will go away. there is a particularly christian 'group' from the 40's who pulled it off. ill write about them later.



[ Parent ]




myths and legends(none / 0) (#3)
by shams on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 10:22:26 AM EST
i dont believe in 3 as u describe them.  or if they exist, they cannot be motivated.

so(none / 0) (#4)
by Ali Eteraz on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 10:25:15 AM EST
its just 1, 2 and 4? i don't buy that.

[ Parent ]
then...(none / 0) (#7)
by shams on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 11:11:44 AM EST

your definition is incomplete.

where they exist...they are multiculturalists. 

which means they use the excuse that all cultures are equivalent to learn nothing and do no work.

razib, u r never a 3.

sorry willow, i calls em as i sees em. 



[ Parent ]




Self-perpetuating realities(none / 0) (#6)
by G. Willow Wilson on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 10:38:23 AM EST
I'd be careful about fostering realities like this one. It'll become a little more true every time you say it, and that's not what we want. We have to leave good people room to breathe.

[ Parent ]
willow(none / 0) (#8)
by shams on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 11:26:25 AM EST

just becuz u want them to exist...doesn't mean they do.

Do u know the patron saint of statisticians?  St. Thomas, Doubting Thomas..."show me the holes that i may put my finger in them, the wound in his side that i may put my hand in it."

Disprove my theory with a counterexample.  Show me one exemplar.  And no, Isis is not a three, and neither is razib. 



[ Parent ]
Just three?(none / 0) (#11)
by G. Willow Wilson on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 12:27:59 PM EST

Edward Said, champion of the rights of Muslims, and an Episcopal Christian turned atheist. He's dead, but we wouldn't have a vocabulary for these kinds of conversations without his work.

All the folks at Jews for Peace, who counter a great deal of conspiracy theory without much thanks from us louts.

Sebastian Junger, journalist. He did the story on Ahmad Shah Masood that no one else in the western press (including its muslim members) was willing to do.

Karen Armstrong, who has been diligently providing a voice of reason with regard to Islam at countless UN councils, US advisory boards, the Doha Debates, and God knows what else. Oh yeah, and she wrote all those books.

Why not the folks at DC Comics? They've just signed the first all-Muslim creative team in mainstream American comics, ever. I'm 1/2 of it.

Susan Burke, attorney, who is defending the victims of Abu Ghraib.

Ghandi.

Need I go on?

 



[ Parent ]
Karen Armstrong(none / 0) (#12)
by Gracchi on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 12:39:17 PM EST
Karen Armstrong is tolerant but she also has very little to say that's really very interesting. I went to a talk she gave in Cambridge UK a while ago and identified three mistakes in the first five minutes- she was shockingly badly informed about the history I know about- ie Christian history despite having written a book on the subject. I didn't find her definition of fundamentalist very convincing either- not sure I find any definition of that word useful but hers was especially bad- it seemed to just be someone who is religious, interested in politics and who I disapprove of. So Billy Graham was a fundamentalist whereas Oliver Cromwell wasn't=. Hence I don't trust her accounts of Islam- not because she is biassed but because her research elsewhere doesn't convince me.

[ Parent ]
Interesting(none / 0) (#15)
by G. Willow Wilson on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 12:52:29 PM EST
I saw her speak at the American University in Cairo and thought she was very intelligent. She's the only mainstream non-Muslim thinker I've ever seen who can come down on 'moderate' religiosity in a way a layperson can understand, and explain why it's not a useful term.

[ Parent ]
armstrong(none / 0) (#47)
by cynic librarian on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 02:14:22 PM EST

As far as popularizers of history goes, she's excellent. I enjoyed her work on fundamentalism, found it extesively documented and thought the framework she used workable. My own interests these days is in the Cambridge contextualist historians, Pocock ans Skinner.

From this perspective, Armstrong's work is somewhat simplistic and out-moded. Her hermeneutic--though serviceable--is too New Agey for me. But, again, she covers all the bases in a readable entertaining way. Her work captures the imagination, something Collingwood said was essential to doing history.



[ Parent ]






armstrong is(none / 0) (#16)
by razib on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 12:57:33 PM EST
intellectual infotainment.  she repeats only one side of scholarly debates but presents them as the only side when she knows her audience is looking for validation.  e.g., she regularly talks about al-andalus as if it was a vision of tolerantion in the liberal tradition, but it wasn't.  jews and mozarabs were second class citizens, just as jews and mujedhars were in christian reconquista states.

[ Parent ]


ok(none / 0) (#66)
by shams on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 10:09:03 PM EST

shamed.

i thot ali was talking about the kossacks and the feministas.

i'll just run away now. ;)

wow--ur 1/2 of the team?  now im totally in awe of u.

i know they're not DC, but im an otaku of these guys. 



[ Parent ]








Hello from #3 land...(none / 0) (#9)
by Jarhead on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 11:48:06 AM EST

I think I fit into this category. I think Isis does as well.

If not maybe we're the 3 1/2?   3 1/4?



[ Parent ]
Classification of Non-Muslim(none / 0) (#10)
by Isis13 on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 12:06:28 PM EST

Jarhead -- I concur.

How about the classification of non-Muslims who are embarrassed by the wrteched behavior toward kind, peace-desiring Muslims by non-Muslim brutes and cretins? 



[ Parent ]
Told you so...(none / 0) (#50)
by AnonyMouse on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 02:17:55 PM EST

See, we definitely need a #3 1/2 category!


Musings of a Muslim Mousehttp://www.muslimmouse.blogspot.com
[ Parent ]
are u sure?(none / 0) (#51)
by Ali Eteraz on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 02:21:30 PM EST
3.5 implies that they are halfway to 4. are they halfway to 4? i don't think so. if anything they might be 2.5 or 3 prime

[ Parent ]
Bump...(none / 0) (#55)
by AnonyMouse on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 02:24:58 PM EST

Bump #4 down and make it #5. These people officially need their own number! Let them be #4...


Musings of a Muslim Mousehttp://www.muslimmouse.blogspot.com
[ Parent ]
if this really gets your heeby jeebies(none / 0) (#60)
by Ali Eteraz on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 02:32:55 PM EST
then please, show me the new version of it in a reader diary cuz im about to bounce

[ Parent ]
All righty! Shams...(none / 0) (#62)
by AnonyMouse on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 02:47:25 PM EST

Maybe Shams and I could work on it together?


Musings of a Muslim Mousehttp://www.muslimmouse.blogspot.com
[ Parent ]
















You didn't mention...(none / 0) (#5)
by AnonyMouse on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 10:28:44 AM EST
...those who want to help us, but have no idea how to. I think they should be called #3 1/2...
Musings of a Muslim Mousehttp://www.muslimmouse.blogspot.com


Thanks for the welcome(none / 0) (#13)
by riles on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 12:47:19 PM EST

I think I qualify as a #3

;) 



And(none / 0) (#14)
by riles on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 12:48:12 PM EST
I'll try to bring my friends

[ Parent ]




The link to the letter is broken!(none / 0) (#17)
by Cafe Alpha on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 01:03:25 PM EST

The link at the top of this post is broken:

When I try <a href"http://eteraz.org/comments/2006/12/5/94720/9182/0/story/2006/11/21/224345/52">it,</a> it just brings up a page which reads "Sorry. I can't seem to find that story."

 



fixed(none / 0) (#21)
by Ali Eteraz on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 01:13:53 PM EST
...

[ Parent ]




shams, negation to assertion?(none / 0) (#18)
by razib on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 01:07:10 PM EST
perhaps you should post a diary elucidating your own categories? i'm curious, you seem to have no problem engaging in demarcation, but i see only the outline fleshed out by the shadows of your refutation at this point.



I prefer ideas to attitudes(none / 0) (#19)
by Cafe Alpha on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 01:11:56 PM EST

I think the underlying assumption of this approach is wrong.  We don't need more people reaching out with non-offensive attitudes, we need Muslims debating ideas, absorbing ideas, giving and taking criticism, and we need ideas to be separated from people and idiologies.  We need ideas to be considered on their own merits.

We need independent thinking.  We need Muslims who are brave enough to stand up even when they're denounced by their friends, or congregations or families.

As long as Muslims don't stand up as individuals, making personal, individual connections is useless!



i disagree(none / 0) (#22)
by Ali Eteraz on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 01:16:19 PM EST
there is no such thing as a solitary voice in the wilderness. ultimately those are forgotten and ignored. i know this b/c i know how not to be one. we dont need individuals. we need institutions. yes institutions are composed of individuals but individuals have to gel and solidify somewhere and become a wall. you're suggesting the aesthetic approach to activism. i think that is already happening but it needs a bicep.

[ Parent ]
But has your approach EVER worked?(none / 0) (#23)
by Cafe Alpha on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 01:22:41 PM EST

What I'm describing is what has always worked in the west.

I think what you're hoping for is something that has yet to work.  It is certainly something I've never seen work.

Maybe it does work in Muslim society, and I'm not familiar enough with the history to know it, but from here it looks like what you've been doing has been a failure for a long time.

I think I'm calling for massive and painful change, but I think there are no shortcuts.  You do what works or you're just engaging in useless wishful thinking.



[ Parent ]
ultimately(none / 0) (#25)
by Ali Eteraz on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 01:26:45 PM EST

what works is success, not theories about what is successful

im plenty familiar with the 'west' and it is a place of institutions as much as it is a place of individual behavior

even the 'revolutionary' progressives didn't get anywhere in the us until they developed institutions (soros and kos)

institutions work (both meanings), individuals create the conditions for them; that the symbiosis 



[ Parent ]
These are not examples of success(none / 0) (#30)
by Cafe Alpha on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 01:37:49 PM EST

KOS does the republicans more good than the democrats he uselessly raises money for.  Those rants are do more to discredit the left than anything else.

And Soros is just a rich man who failed to change American politics.



[ Parent ]
uh(none / 0) (#32)
by Ali Eteraz on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 01:41:50 PM EST

i think u should brush up on your knowledge of these things. like kos or not but he got at least two senators in (tester and webb).

soros, i'm sure you don't know, is more than just a rich man. he owns things like the center for constitutional rights. do you know how many landmarks cases they've won? more than you have fingers and toes.

it isn't just the progressives who've used institutions successfully. same goes for hoover and brookings 'institutes' and the whole pajamas media empire (quite complicit in drumming up support for the iraq war).

my point about progressives was simply that even when they - with their revolutionary undertones - wanted to get busy, they organized to form a bloc. 



[ Parent ]
Never mind KOS(none / 0) (#35)
by Cafe Alpha on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 01:54:24 PM EST

Kos was probably a bad example. No doubt you don't want to make anything much like his immature, hostile site, nor to emulate his long string of electoral failures...

I find all of those rants on his site just almost as disturbing as reading hostile Islamist sites, and much more embarassing, since I vote for some of the same people those losers do.  I would still call myself "a progressive" if I didn't find the company so embarassing.



[ Parent ]










Ok , I see something I missed(none / 0) (#28)
by Cafe Alpha on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 01:35:01 PM EST
"...but individuals have to gel and solidify somewhere and become a wall."

 Ok, I'll agree to that, but in order to accomplish that sort of solidarity you need to limit your scope to the very very narrow.  Pick a single issue that you can get a group to believe in without reservation and sell to the public.

Unless you can turn your whole east-west friendship into a single issue, such as opposing the theology of Dar al-Harb then I can't see you accomplishing much.

And of course the problem of that comes back to the issue of calling for massive and painful change, because it's clearly calling for change among the attitudes of Muslims.  And I haven't seen Muslims responsability enough to consider changing.  The culture always blames "the other".

[ Parent ]
ongoing(none / 0) (#31)
by Ali Eteraz on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 01:39:16 PM EST
what specific causes we embrace and promote will be decided upon by a bit of serendipity and a bit of accident. i dont think there is reason to worry about what, theoretically, we need to be supporting; nor is there reason to worry about what, specifically, we will end up doing, because these things emerge organically (by organic i don't mean sua sponte). once people start buzzing around and reporting and knocking on doors, noise will be created.

[ Parent ]








One more I forgot!(none / 0) (#20)
by Cafe Alpha on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 01:13:29 PM EST
We need these discussions to be public so that they'll be open to criticism.

see(none / 0) (#24)
by Ali Eteraz on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 01:24:40 PM EST

that's exactly the problem: you want muslims to, as individuals, stand up and say X & Y, but then you want it to be public, so you can bring your critique upon them.

that's unlikely to happen. the only way any minority community accepts a critique of its position from the outside is it does not feel threatened. i don't think you appreciate the extent to which muslims in the west -- and in their police state countries -- feel threatened by expressing their true hearts' opinions. your suggestion subjects people to a level of critique that requires a long history of security.

frankly, for the most part, muslims don't feel that (you can argue whether they, we, are justified in feeling that way). the other reason is that when u subject singular individual muslims to critiques, the critiques are ceaseless, and nuuuuuumerous (i remember my blogging experience). there were days when i, a student of philosophy and law, couldn't handle the sheer volume. i don't see how an undergrad or a 15 year old will withstand it. they will, instead, retreat, and hang out with their friends.

i do agree that it should be public. but it should be in a larger environment where a person does not feel threatened. that is part of the reason im going to be aggressive towards trolls and islamophobes here.



[ Parent ]
not true(none / 0) (#26)
by razib on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 01:27:40 PM EST

"the only way any minority community accepts a critique of its position from the outside is it does not feel threatened"

this is totally false ali.  jews in 18th and 19th century europe were assailed by a highly critical culture (see what voltaire and kant had to say about jews). in 19th century america roman catholics were also criticized and culturally assaulted.  they assimilated and changed.

perhaps the past is not the present and criticism is just not possible. or perhaps muslims have different charactres, i don't know. but the cultural of critique has worked in the past (i can give many other examples). 



[ Parent ]
uh(none / 0) (#27)
by Ali Eteraz on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 01:31:47 PM EST

razib

the jews in the 19th century?

dude, the jews produced herzl and left to seek out their mythical homeland. the zionist movement is as much an embrace of european anti-semitism as it is a fear of it. name me some prominent jews from 1801 to 1901 europe.

the successful jewish culture within europe was created only when jews felt safe. germany pre-hitler. i concede that the safety doesn't have to be absolute.

in the end, i dont like discussions on history and what not. i only are about results. 



[ Parent ]
european jews in the 19th century(none / 0) (#37)
by razib on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 02:02:17 PM EST
marx & engels. disraeli. heinrich heine.  mendelsshon bartoldy. freud.

[ Parent ]
come on!!(none / 0) (#39)
by Ali Eteraz on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 02:08:54 PM EST

how many jews back then considered these guys jews? marx? he has a hard time being taken for a jew now! freud i consider 20th century, not 19th. he too not welcomed by the jews until very recently.

heine is the only one i'll admit. and mendelsohn is from kant's era so really counts as 18th century not 19th.

disraeli is a good example, except you're talking about england. world's apart from the continent.

but what are these examples really showing? that there is a "cream" of people who, despite adverse conditions against their "people" do rise to the top? i accept that. that's common sense. their existence, however, does not change the fact that a vast majority of their "people" shrink away from the dominant discourse, and from the "cream" as well.  



[ Parent ]
be careful(none / 0) (#43)
by razib on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 02:11:15 PM EST
i said mendelsohn bartoldy. i don't make elementary errors like that :-)

[ Parent ]
oye(none / 0) (#44)
by Ali Eteraz on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 02:12:35 PM EST
touchee.

[ Parent ]




this is false(none / 0) (#46)
by razib on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 02:13:45 PM EST

"that's common sense. their existence, however, does not change the fact that a vast majority of their "people" shrink away from the dominant discourse, and from the "cream" as well."

as i said, this is empirically false. see my follow up post. there are regions in poland (galicia) where haredi judaism is as you say, but their emergence in the 19th century was initially against scholarly rabbnical jews, not reformers.  the majority of european dealt with criticism not by becoming haredi, but my taking a step toward some sort of accommodation, whether it be turning christian, secular or reforming judaism into another mold.



[ Parent ]
re: haredi(none / 0) (#48)
by razib on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 02:15:04 PM EST
18th, not 19th, century is when this got hot.

[ Parent ]


yo(none / 0) (#49)
by Ali Eteraz on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 02:17:11 PM EST
when did i ever say that im interested in seeing muslims pull a "haredi" - my point was merely that if you want to see actual successful accomodation and intersection you aren't gonna do it if the people feel insecure (and they will feel secure if they are existentially assured upon seeing large blocs of their own "people.") you are taking me to mean that im promoting some kind of self-ghettoization when it comes to muslims, when that is patently not the case, and just the trajectory of my writings -- "open letter to reformist Muslims' -- and the actual cross-pollination that haroon and willow are doing in their authorial careers, are proofs of that.

[ Parent ]
no, you misunderstand me(none / 0) (#52)
by razib on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 02:21:30 PM EST

i am not saying you want muslims to pull a haredi, but you said:

"the only way any minority community accepts a critique of its position from the outside is it does not feel threatened"

as an empirical description i'm saying its false.  that's all.  i'm not critiquing your methodology.



[ Parent ]
damn scientists(none / 0) (#53)
by Ali Eteraz on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 02:24:12 PM EST

ok i was stupid to use the word "only" and paid the price by outputting 25 comments.

change it to "one way"

frankly though R, if you're going to expect in comments the linguistic certitude that ought to be reserved for manifestos and speeches, then im going to disappoint over and over. 



[ Parent ]


clarification(none / 0) (#54)
by razib on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 02:24:40 PM EST

consider, in the united states and in germany reform jews had intense debates about the validity of halakah, the messiah, the jewish nationhood, etc. after 2,000 years why did this happen? some change within the jewish people? no.  i think it can be asserted that this change in judaism, so that rabbnical judaism is now only practiced by a majority when it was judaism qua judaism between 300 and 1800, was due to exogenous factors

a) there was a loosening of the restrictions against jews who did not convert to christianity joining european society (starting with the french revolution)

b) simultaneously with this loosening there was a particular critique against jews by anti-religious secular intellectuals which was an extrapolation of their critique against religious obscurantism 



[ Parent ]
correction(none / 0) (#57)
by razib on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 02:25:43 PM EST
practiced by the minority remember, even in israel rabbnical judaism is practiced by only a minority of "jews."

[ Parent ]


reform jews(none / 0) (#58)
by Ali Eteraz on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 02:26:58 PM EST
trace me the history of reform judaism, cuz i don't know (never interested me). is a big push post wwii? in which case that 'exogenous' factor is the holocaust.

[ Parent ]
reform judaism(none / 0) (#61)
by razib on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 02:34:23 PM EST

it started in german in the 19th century. it was brought to the USA between 1850-1900 by german jews (mostly from bavaria). the eastern european jews who came between 1890-1920 assimilated to reform judaism as a way of becoming american.  this was occuring after 1920, before world ii. conservative judaism was in some ways a more traditionalist type of judaism than reform judaism promoted by eastern europeans who were turned off by the german flavor of reform judaism.

the big point is that when jews had a chance to participate in western culture as jews, they had to figure out how to stay jewish without halakah. ritual religion is totally acceptable in the shtetl, but it is harder when you have regular contact with non-believers. 



[ Parent ]
reform judaism(none / 0) (#67)
by Jared on Thu Dec 07, 2006 at 01:17:33 PM EST

Razib,

Just curious, do you think the reform judaism movement coming from germany might saw more about german kulture than it does about anything else?  I'm thinking of the protestant reformation when I say this.

 



[ Parent ]


















history, facts(none / 0) (#40)
by razib on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 02:09:47 PM EST

1) the largest sect of american judaism is the reform. this emerged lineally from the critique against judaism made by enlightenment thinkers that judaism was clannish, retrograde, primitive.

2) the reform as a rejection of the pharisaic traditional of rabbinical judaism.  conservative judaism is an attempt to  span rabbnical and reform judaism. this dynamic in american judaism, millions of individuals, is derived from the enlightenment critique and the haskalah.

3) zionism is not the totality of the jewish experience. the pity of it all by amos elon he notes two points about the german jewish exp.

a) quantitatively the majority of german jews within germany in 1750 were absorbed by the christian population by 1900

b) between 1900 to 1940 the trend was for total extinction of german jews via intermarriage and assimilation

4) 75% of german jews from the 1930s survived the showa because they fled.  the vast majority of the fatalities from the genocide against the jews were bore by the thriving and vital central european communities, in whose midst were many haredi groups living in isolated shtetls. from this, i could make a case that jews who were forced by the culture of critique to reconstruct their identity, jews in britain, the USA, and even germany, were spared to a greater extent than those jews in central europe who had established a modus vivendi, whether it be an ethnicity separate from the national culture (yiddish speakers amongst slavs), or a ethno-religious group living in their own communities (as the haredi and other trads did).

5) the evidence from the jews, and even the catholics, is that cultural coherency is preserved by a golden mean of toleration and distrust.  when the society is too accepting minorities tend to get absorbed. when it is not accepting enough they are often expelled or exterminated. 

6) if you make falsifiable claims i'll have to chime in. perhaps you aren't making the claims i think you're making, but then you need to be clearer. 



[ Parent ]




btw(none / 0) (#29)
by Ali Eteraz on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 01:35:30 PM EST

both u and matoko exhibit a certain scientists demand for proof from activism, which, im sorry to say, you're not going to find.

activism and reform and change, whatever you call it, are not exercises in the platonic discovery of certain 'forms' which, when and if applied now, will yield the desired results.

history is created in the present by re-descripton. i refer you to hobbes opening chapter in the leviathan and machiavelli's description of moses in 'the prince.' 



[ Parent ]


not true2(none / 0) (#41)
by LawrenceofArabia on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 02:10:25 PM EST
catholics are not a good example either.  the roman church battoned down the hatches during the 18th and 19th century, cracking down on progressive philosophical elements within catholicism while strengthening papal authority.  this is the era of "the syllabus of errors" (or, "why modernity is evil and bad and wrong and really icky") and vatican1 in which the pope is defined as infallible.  in short, under heavy cultural criticism the catholic church became more authoritarian and less open to intellectual debate within its ranks.  this lasted until the mid60s and vatican2 when the church conceded on many of the points of criticism, and as a result of those concessions the church in many ways lost its sense of identity in europe and states, attendence plunged, ordinations plunged, vocations plunged and the church in europe and america has yet to recover.

and i do not point that out because i think the vatican was wrong to make the changes it made, but as an example of how being under extreme cultural pressure creates a climate that is not open to internal review.
Lawrence of Arabia
[ Parent ]
wow(none / 0) (#45)
by Ali Eteraz on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 02:13:43 PM EST
sounds like iran

[ Parent ]


re: catholicism(none / 0) (#59)
by razib on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 02:31:00 PM EST

in "<span class="srTitle">Catholicism and American Freedom: A History</span>" by John T. McGreevy he makes the argument that vat II was the victory of the americanist 'heretics' who were rebuffed in the early 20th century. the americanist and bishop ireland of st. paul promoted a form of church-state relations which accommodated the american liberal order explicitly. john courtney murray was later instrumental in this.  mcgreevy's main point is that american catholics might have been instrumental in changing the zeitgeist and forcing vatican ii. the other main allies of the americanists were progressive catholic intellectuals in france.

hard to generalization about such an enormous faith. jews are easier cuz there aren't many of 'em. 



[ Parent ]
catholicism2(none / 0) (#64)
by LawrenceofArabia on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 03:05:26 PM EST
to say vatican2 was a victory for the americanists is a stretch.  to say it saw the church open its windows, the so-called "aggornimento", to persons it had previously silenced though would be accurate.  it is not really all that hard to generalize about the church in the 19th and early 20th centuries in europe and america.  certainly there were many groups with different concerns at work, but insofar as those groups in any way entertained modernity they found themselves under ecclesial pressure to which they either had to concede or find themselves isolated or even silenced.  the church even silenced figures that would in, in the post-vatican2 era, be considered relatively conservative to moderate, such as de lubac (who was later made a cardinal of the church).  murray also found himself under gag order a couple of times and was forbidden to write on political matters until the church made some rather lukewarm concessions to political liberalism at the council (murray becomes very ill and dies during the council).  one can even go back into the 19th century and see the same pattern with blondel, de bonald, bautain...there was a thriving theological faculty at tubingen in the 19th century engaged in conversation with german idealism, that rapidly faded into non-importance as tensions rose between the vatican and germany.  in all these cases the antagonism that was generated between modernity and catholicism caused the vatican to stifle conversation within its own ranks and gather more and more power into pope's hands.
Lawrence of Arabia
[ Parent ]
people vs. power(none / 0) (#65)
by razib on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 03:20:02 PM EST

"in all these cases the antagonism that was generated between modernity and catholicism caused the vatican to stifle conversation within its own ranks and gather more and more power into pope's hands."

but let's look outside the vatican.  american catholicism (as a specific example) was very diverse and partially assimilated into the catholic-protestant-jew trichotomy by the 1930s.* one can make the argument that the reformation also made catholicism intolerant and anti-humanistic, but from the outside over the long term that it seemed to induce in the church a correction.

* i think one can argue that it is no coincidence that french catholicism also developed liberal/progressive strands in response to anti-clericalism and critique 



[ Parent ]










A matter of generations(none / 0) (#33)
by Cafe Alpha on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 01:47:27 PM EST

I'm sure that third generation Muslim immigrants, or some proportion of them, can stand up to criticism just as well as others in the same societies.

As for there being too many critiques, I think the main point is that just a few of the critiques will be intelligent and important. 

 One can ignore the others, and in any case most are duplicates, and one only need to answer each point once.



[ Parent ]
yes(none / 0) (#34)
by Ali Eteraz on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 01:51:27 PM EST

and the reason they will be withstand critiques are because they have institutions just like everyone else before them.

that was my point from the start.



[ Parent ]
No, those institutions are not your creation!(none / 0) (#38)
by Cafe Alpha on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 02:06:01 PM EST

"and the reason they will be withstand critiques are because they have institutions just like everyone else before them."

No the institutions that protect them have nothing to do with the friendship club you're trying to create.  The institutions are things like a society that encourages individual independence of thought and speech, a society that encourages independence from the family, the "Bill of Rights" (or the local equivalent), a relatively well controlled and fair police department, a society that strongly disapproves of (and suppresses) violence and intimidation by religious groups etc. etc.

This isn't the creation of anything new at all, it's just the citizen's awareness of what's already there. 



[ Parent ]
yes(none / 0) (#42)
by Ali Eteraz on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 02:11:13 PM EST
and i never said it was anything new. i said it was a place that helped create better conditions for organization. im not here trying to peddle some new world historical formula that hasn't been tried. i dont care for revolution. and i dont care for credit. i only care that there should be easier access to critical information, and to large groups of likeminded people. you can call that new, old, stupid, or absurd, but that's about all i'm interested in.

[ Parent ]








Then you're invisible!(none / 0) (#36)
by Cafe Alpha on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 02:00:13 PM EST

If discussions aren't public, and open to criticism, then they're invisible.

And to those outside your in-group they might as well not exist.

Look, I can look at what's public about Mosques in my country.  It isn't very much, but the Islamists are more public than their critics, so it's easy for the public to conclude that only the Islamist critique is winning and significant. 



[ Parent ]
i agree(none / 0) (#56)
by Ali Eteraz on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 02:25:14 PM EST
thus, eteraz

[ Parent ]


I agree with a lot of what you are saying(none / 0) (#63)
by Samaha on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 02:49:20 PM EST

I was under the impression that most people on this site were.  Being a keyboard hero is nice, but it doesn't really make an impact.  Being pro-active, not just online, but outside within the real world is necessary.

I wrote a piece on AMAL in my diary and one of the issues that I had with the interfaith dialogue that I reviewed was that we "the Muslims" didn't handle the questions very well.  We need to publicly as practicing Muslims start acknowledging that there are problems from the general international Muslim community.

I may do a follow-up to that post, provided I can go on record with correspondence from one of the board members of AMAL.



[ Parent ]









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