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Islamic Face Off & American Stupidity


By Ali Eteraz
Posted on Tue Jan 02, 2007 at 11:10:08 AM EST
Tags: iran, iraq, war (all tags)

Updated bottom

When I said in Septemeber that there was a Thirty Years War starting up between Shi'a and Sunni it was not simply a historical analogy penned for the sake of intellectual reflection. It was something that people in the United States should take seriously. Yet, even two months later, even as the pundits started to use the right vocabulary, they merely made an academic exercise of it -- "ooh, cool comparison!" -- and moved on.

There is a larger narrative that no one seems to appreciate. Here is that narrative: Iran and Saudi Arabia are setting up a power struggle that is going to encompass the heart of the Muslim world; a smaller version of the cold war; with satellite states; and lots of covert, decentralized mercenary usage. In fact, there is some evidence that this struggle has already started. However, this is not just a geo-political struggle. It is colored by almost 1400 hundreds years of inter-Islamic strife. It is colored by brutal massacres. It is colored by theology. It is colored by religious authority. In other words, the battle between Saudi and Iran is not a battle between two random countries. It represents the longest-standing and most violent face-off within Islam. If people thought that Protestant versus Catholic was bad; appreciate the fact that the Islamic face-off was around for almost 900 years before a Protestant even existed.
 
And the worst thing about this coming battle is that the United States has absolutely no idea that 1) it is coming, 2) or what to do about it. Here, then, is some education.

History

It is irrelevant what actually happened in the past between Shi'a and Sunni, which is what pundits usually start talking about when they get to this point. Objectivity is irrelevant. What is relevant today is what Shi'a masses and Sunnis masses are taught.

Sunnis masses are taught that shortly after the death of the Prophet Muhammad, a man who was formerly a Jew (and was probably not really a convert at all), helped to stoke the flames that created the Shi'a/Sunni division in Islam. This means that immediately a Sunni equates a Shi'a with a Jew, and that means that today, a Sunni can immediately equate Shi'a with a global Zionist conspiracy. It is why I found this fatwa by a Saudi cleric important enough to link to. This fatwa perpetuates this already long-standing propaganda.
 
Shi'a masses are taught that Ali, the cousin of the Prophet Muhammad to whom Shi'a are connected, was inappropriately denied the Caliphate, not once, but on three separate times, and that the worst offender in the usurpation was the third Caliph, Usman, who only cared about nepotism and consolidating power for his family (which is actually kind of true). Thus, Shi'a immediately dislike anyone that comes from Usman's stock -- and that, my friends, has been a huge problem because numerous Muslim leaders since that time have been from Umayyad stock.

The Shi'a -- by way of today's Iran -- have attempted to neutralize the lie that is perpetuated against them (i.e. they are a Jewish conspiracy), by going after Israel. If they kill Jews, and free Jerusalem, surely no one will think they are a Jewish conspiracy. It is why Hizbollah exists. Not to free the Palestinians. It is a PR campaign by the Iranians. It works. Here is a conversation I had with an activist during the Israel-Hizbollah war. Look at the way in which Hassan Nasrallah is beheld by the Arabs. You might also be interested in learning that after the war, Hizbollah gave out rolls of cash worth 12,000 bucks. Iran knows PR as well as the Israelis and Americans. Iran has actually been able to win the heart of fence-sitting Muslims by propping up Hizbollah.

Sunnis, on the other hand, because they are the majority, do not play defense. They simply keep hammering the idea that the Shi'a are a sort of heretic cult, and go to town with it. This should not be as easy as it is, because the Muslim reformists of the 20th century were able to patch up a few of the problems between Sunni and Shi'a and should have been able to resist this. The foremost patching occurred under a modernist cleric at Cairo's al-Azhar university. He made it so that the Shi'a school of law, for twelve hundred years not accepted as legitimate by the Sunni religious authorities, was accepted as the fifth legitimate school of Islamic Law. Those scholars; the ones who ought to be rising up on behalf of Shi'a Sunni solidarity are not speaking up. They can't. They live in a police state (Egypt). Around the rest of the world they simply are not organized.

You then have the issue of historical geo-politics. Numerous times over the history of Islam, a Sunni empire was defeated or kept in check, by way of an aspiring Shi'a empire. It started really early.

As the Umayyad Caliphate (children of the third Caliph Usman) spread Westward towards Africa, they suddenly ran into the Fatimids, a Shi'a Caliphate, which prevented them from expanding.
 
Later, when the Abbassids Sunnis expanded to Baghdad, they were on constant alert for neo-Fatimid and Shi'a infiltration.
 
Then, when the Sunni Ottomans (Usmanis - no connection with the Caliph Usman) came to power, they ran into the Safavids in Iran -- who formalized Shi'a Islam in Iran and prevented the Ottomans from linking up with the somewhat Sunni Moghuls in India. If you go to South Asia today, you still have people upset over the fact that the Safavids were like a wedge between Turkish and Indian Islam. They argue that the Muslim world would not have become colonized if the Sunni powers -- Ottomans and Moghuls -- weren't undermined by the Shi'a subversive Safavids.

For more detailed reading on how this historical prejudice against the Shi'a now manifests itself via people like Zarqawi read this essay from July which does a fairly good analysis of Shi'a demonization within Islamic theology, and how geo-political failures -- like colonialism -- get pushed onto the Shi'a.

Then, of course, there is the matter of Kerbala; the plains in modern day Iraq, where Imam Hussain, son of Ali, grandson of the Prophet, was killed by an Umayyad usurper Yazid (who, to Sunnis Yazid is not an usurper; at best, just a misguided idiot). Not only was Hussain killed, so was his entire family. This massacre -- which occurred in Iraq -- is the fundamental historical event that requires reconciliation. Yazid was an Umayyad -- a couple of generations removed from the Caliph Usman. Yazid's father Mu'awiya had waged a bitter fight against Hussain's father Ali when Ali was Caliph. Yazid killed Hussain when he suspected that Hussain was on his way to Kufa to make a claim upon the Caliphate. As noted, Kerbala is in modern day Iraq. That would be the place which we are now occupying.

Finally, there was a little thing called the Iran Iraq war, which is the forum which gives us a little thing called suicide bombing. Almost 2 million people died on each side. The Iranians described the war as an attack on Shi'a Islam. The Sunni world was told that it was a war for the future of Sunni Islam. It was about neither; but that is irrelevant today.

The Stupidity of the United States

Continue reading below...

So, in essence, when we waltzed into Iraq, a place which was torn between Shi'a and Sunni, a place which contains the planes of Kerbala, a place where numerous stand offs between Shi'a and Sunni had happened in the past (Abbasid infiltration, Safavid conquest of Iraq), we did so by ignoring the entire cavalcade of history.

Thereafter, we failed to broker any sort of peace between the religious communities. The insurgents realized this and they started to use the historical antagonism as a way to get back at us. It's been working for them.
 
Not only that, but we didn't realize that if the Sunni-Shi'a situation got out of hand, we'd have a real problem, because Iran already had huge regional hegemonic ambitions.

Nor did we consider that if and when Iran started acting up, you would have some Sunnis somewhere react and try to put them back in their place. We were genuinely surprised when we found that it was the Saudis -- our long standing bitches -- that took up the anti-Shi'a anti-Iran mantle. We were surprised when Saudi turned off all the anti-Israel remarks and started saying that Iran was more of a threat to the future of Islam than Israel itself. Yes, we were surprised by this because we are stupid.

What we did not understand -- or care to know -- was this little thing called Religious Authority. What we did not understand -- or care to know -- was this little thing called Islam.

You see, Islam does not have a clergy. It means that anyone with the votes -- or the guns -- becomes the leader. In that sense Islam is Protestant. However, that is merely Sunni Islam. Shi'a Islam does have a clergy. It has a sort of "Church." People ascribe very closely to what their clerics -- Ayatollahs -- tell them to do. In that sense, it is Catholic. Over history, Sunni Islam has contained the ambitions of people -- and their violence -- by positing that people had to behave according to what the "scholars" were saying (who then preached peace and pacifism). But people stopped adhering to the limits that the "scholars" put on them (ask the academics why). Now, Sunni Islam is a free for all and Shi'a Islam is not at all.

The only one who can take charge in Sunni Islam is Saudi Arabia. For one simple reason: Saudi controls Mecca and Medina. You can be the biggest baddest thug in the Sunni Muslim world but you have to bow down to the guy who holds Mecca and Medina. That is Saudi's ace in the hole. Not oil; Mecca. Because they have that ace, Saudi will, no matter how ignorant and backwards, take the lead in the Muslim world. That, is, exactly, what, it, has, done.

How exactly did Wahhabism spread to Chechnya, Bosnia, Indonesia, the US and elsewhere? Very simply: a mosque got founded, people argued as to who should lead it, the reply was: anyone trained by the Saudis. Why? Because Muslims just assume that if you studied in the shade of Mecca or Medina you are more religious than anyone else. It is this psychological power which transforms into actual power that gives Saudi Arabia its big time status in the Muslim world (and the oil money is just a tool that it uses to rely on this psychological power). For the longest time Saudi Arabia -- relying on this psychological power -- spread its tentacles. It went into the Soviet-Afghan war. It went into Europe. It went into anywhere there were Muslims. It shipped free Qurans (which I showed are acidic as hell).

Then, Iran picked up on their game. It rooted its religious authority in becoming the defender of the third holiest city in Islam (Jerusalem). Then, with its own oil wealth, it started spreading its own tentacles. You got an Iran-India-Pakistan oil pipeline (Pakistan's got a huge number of Shi'a with some who are in high powered places). It went to the Arabs -- in areas where there are a lot Shi'a Arabs -- and suggested that the Arabs were cowards because they did not throw off the United States. It went into places which we abandoned -- in favor of Iraq -- and which were available for the taking and is now running huge parts of Afghanistan. I am not even going to talk about the battle brewing in the Central Asian nations.

Ok, I Accept I am A Stupid American, But Please Help Me Solve This Globalized Civil War

The answer lies with the Iraqi Shi'a. Funny and ironic, right? The people that GHW Bush abandoned to Saddam's brutality after promising them military backing in 1991. The ones that are dying by the boatload now because we weren't able to prevent insurgents attacks on them so they took to forming their own militias. The group who used to give allegiance to Sistani but slowly gave it over to Sadr because he would protect them.
 
Thing with the Iraq Shi'a is that they ara Arab and not Persian. While they look to Qom for spiritual guidance they do not listen to Qom. The Arab/Persian divide is one that even Shi'a Islam has not been able to bridge. When the Safavids were romping in Iran, they weren't able to simply annex Iraq despite its majority Shi'a population. They had to take it over with conquest.

If the Iraqi Shi'a can create a viable state in Iraq in which there is some modicum of peace with the Sunnis, the threat of a Shi'a crescent can be minimized. However, I am not exactly optimistic that the current Administration in any way shape or form knows how to solve this problem and that is why a new American narrative that confronts Iran directly is needed. The entire goal has to be to let the Arab states talk their hardline while we give strategic softening to the Iranians.

We have to do something about Israel-Palestine. I recently heard that Israelis are again creating settlements. We need to get them back to the 1967 borders and be actively engaged -- using economic incentives -- in reigning in Hamas. For this reason we need a new strategy towards Hamas as well. As long as the Palestinians suffer, Hizbollah will be considered the saviors of Jerusalem, and as long as Hizbollah is not de-legitimized (which can only happen with peace), Iran will have far more influence in the Arab world than it should.

Conclusion 

There has been no evidence to me that the United States is aware of the magnitude of the problem at hand. Those that have expressed some measure of alarm have done it solely to try and find a military option in Iran. Unfortunately, we are neither capable of of a military victory in Iran -- as declared by the CIA -- nor does it do anything but exacerbate a Shi'a Sunni war that no one knows how to control. Besides, what would an outright Saudi victory in the middle east really get us? It isn't as if their Islam is all that peaceful.

Finally, someone needs to invent a world for a Religious Civil War. "Sunni, Shi'a Schism" is too arcane; and Islamic Face off is too Hollywood.

Update: via Haroon

1. Umayyads and Fatimids: There was no Umayyad empire when the Fatimids were born. In fact, the Fatimids were born well after the Abbasids had even declined. One could say that the real "cold war" inside Islam began with the struggle of Fatimiyyah vs. Seljuk; the Seljuks sponsored the Nizamiyya system, which was to counter Fatimid propaganda. Fatimid propagandists reached to India (birthing the Bohra communities) and Seljuks tried to counter-act it. Indeed, the struggle is crucial because while Sunni and Shi'i fight it out (this time, though, Sunni ruled Iran and Shi'i ruled Egypt, and Sunni Islam's greatest champion was an Iranian, al-Ghazali, who was birthed by the Nizami madaris that Nizam al-Mulk established throughout the Seljuk state as a way of defending Sunnism.

2. That time period was also crucial because the Holy Land was being occupied, and though the Seljuks faded before there was a concerted Sunni resistance movement, it was the Sunnis who, under Salah al-Din, took Egypt first, and then took on the Crusaders, and on taking Egypt from the Fatimids, they "returned" Egypt to Sunnism (Egypt had never really been converted; it was a matter of nominal allegiance and handing al-Azhar over to Sunnism.) From that point on, Sunni Islam became centered on Al-Azhar. Shi'i Islam began retreating and dispersing, and would not really emerge in organized state form for several centuries, under Safavid rule. But the Safavids, who FORCIBLY converted Iran to Shi'ism, adopted Twelver Shi'ism, which was far more
"mainstream." 

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I don't feel all that stupid....(none / 0) (#1)
by desmay on Tue Jan 02, 2007 at 11:55:23 AM EST

....since I already knew just about all of that.

I also think the people in government got that too. Really, the whole "Americans are stupid" (or just "Bush is stupid") narrative gets really tiresome and is not particularly productive that I can see.

Given that Iran clearly has imperialist aims, the question is how to respond. I think a truculent, hardline response is best. But if we haven't got the guts for that, then, we need something else. But I don't believe for one second that if Israel goes back to its 1967 borders this will do anything to quell Iran's hegemonic desires.

I also think the Persian/Arab split will prevent Iran from ever really controlling Iraq in a major way.

We made an honest attempt in Iraq to let them have self-government. And really, barely a year into the experiment, it strikes me as incredibly stupid to just assume it's a failure, although some people are clearly very anxious to have it fail.

I don't think the attempt was stupid, and I don't think we're stupid now. We're in a greater position of strength in that part of the world than we've ever been in.



how(none / 0) (#4)
by center on Tue Jan 02, 2007 at 12:22:24 PM EST

Desmay,

 

i think you are cofusing the goal and means.  what people are objecting to is the 'means'.  I do not know where you got the idea that ..(W)e are in a greater position of strength in that part of the world....



[ Parent ]




Errors?(none / 0) (#2)
by zack on Tue Jan 02, 2007 at 11:59:19 AM EST

The Umayyads were children of Usman?

And the Fatimids existed during Umayyad rule?


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Achieved vs Ascribed status(none / 0) (#3)
by center on Tue Jan 02, 2007 at 12:14:55 PM EST

An informative summary of hundreds of years antagonism between the two sects in Islam. 

What is portrayed as a religious conflict is nothing but an extent ion of power struggle between house of Hashim (the prophet's family) and the house of Abu Sufian ( Muawiya family).  If memory does not fail me, I remember reading that Abu Sufian was one of the last people to accept Mohammad as a prophet...hoping against hope that he would not be victorious!

In any case, Sunni Islam, as I understand it, assumes the individual is responsible for his choices; fetwas are nothing but position paper representing the author.  A strength implicit in the Sunni literature is that status, be it that of leading etc, is something that is achieved.  One has to show and to prove that he(she) is qualified to assume a role.  Furthermore, Waqf, foundations were established to support civic organizations and to support the judicial system to be keep it independent. 

Sad to say, none of what sounds to be a recipe for dynamic community exists in today's world.

The strength of Shia Islam today is that there is an established, following that leadership is helpful (at least to the hierarchy).  For its leadership, Shia Islam opts for the ascribed status, (lineage to the prophet(?)).

The miracles of the Semites keep on unraveling. 





interesting(none / 0) (#5)
by TallDave on Tue Jan 02, 2007 at 12:32:03 PM EST

I read a couple months ago that Turkish Muslims in Germany are being taught using Wahhabists textbooks.  Why?  Well, the Turkish government had offered their (much more reasonable)  Islamic textbooks, but the Germans decided that would violate the separation of church and state.  So in stepped the rich Saudis, and now we all scratch our heads trying to figure out why young Western Muslims are far more radical than their forebears back home.

The Palestinian problem is identical: they grow up steeped in a propaganda stew of incredible hate and ignorance, and will continue to do so as long as Arabs and Persians keep funding the hate groups.  Remove Israel from the equation and they would be just miserable; more, in fact, since Israel provides most of their productive income.

Anyways, in the main you are quite wrong about their being no effort to broker peace; the whole point of establishing democracy is so that moderate elements can negotiate their differences peacefully in a parliamentary setting, and band together against the extreme elements.  The sectarian violence in Iraq today pales in comparison to the open civil war of the 1980s and 1990s.<!-- X header table --><!--/images/small_logo.jpg"  --><!-- Main layout table -->





Untangle the untangling - Shia(none / 0) (#6)
by dmz on Tue Jan 02, 2007 at 12:39:49 PM EST

"The Shi'a -- by way of today's Iran -- have attempted to neutralize the lie that is perpetuated against them (i.e. they are a Jewish conspiracy), by going after Israel. If they kill Jews, and free Jerusalem, surely no one will think they are a Jewish conspiracy. It is why Hizbollah exists. Not to free the Palestinians. It is a PR campaign by the Iranians."

 Whoa! What is it about Eteraz and Shia? Source please! That is such a stretch it SNAPS!

If the Shia are a jewish conspiracy (or so they say) and that it started right after the demise of the Prophet, why did Ali ibn Abi Taleb wait three terms to accept the Caliphate (how many YEARS)? It must have been a weak conspiracy indeed.

And now, LOL, to PROVE they are not jews, the Iranian started hezbullah!!!

Thanks for the laugh!

Shi'ism - the Party of Ali. As told by a Sunni.  



Unenviable Dilemma(none / 0) (#7)
by dmz on Tue Jan 02, 2007 at 12:57:46 PM EST

I don't know where you get your info, but I am anxious to see that.

I am not sure which is the LEAST desirable:

1. The Shia are a jewish conspiracy

2. That Iran is so shallow as to pretend to help Palestinians just to clear their reputation.

LOL. Jews aren't the only connivers in town.

I always heard that

Abu Bakr basically made succession to the Prophet a kind of democratic prospect while supporters of Ali believed in lineage as trumping popular will.

Iran has followed that line and preferred Royal succession to popular vote up until recently.

Fadak, Umar's treatment of Fatima and many other grievances including a totally different history about Hussein are left out.

 Someone here should really keep an eye on Shia "narratives." It seems a little misrepresented currently. 



[ Parent ]


Shia Myths abound(none / 0) (#8)
by Yousuf on Tue Jan 02, 2007 at 01:04:57 PM EST

Exactly my thoughts....the notion that Iran created Hezbollah to impress the sunnis is really hilarious...

and you know what I dont think there is any American stupidity involved ... I think it's deliberate more than anything else...

 



[ Parent ]




realism(none / 0) (#9)
by Ali Eteraz on Tue Jan 02, 2007 at 01:32:24 PM EST

this is not an idealist essay; it does not inquire what a shi'a or a sunni ought to believe, or believe as a matter of dogma, but what they are taught, and how those things are constructed.

this is an essay about "spin." everyone has their spin, including iran and saudi arabia. please do not take up what problems you have with their spin, with me. i am merely reporting the spin that i am seeing.

which includes the fact that in pakistan sunnis believe that shi'a think ali is god; that shi'a's like anal sex.

the response to me saying such facts is NOT to say "no, shi'a do not think ali is god or prefer anal sex." when you answer like that you merely affirm that you are playing in the language game of prejudice. instead, the focus should be on what the consequence of that kind of prejudice actually are.

my point in the post is that wide scale prejudice exists, and it is being manipulated, americans know nothing about, and if a few comments are any indication, muslims are more concerned about setting the 'record' straight, than worrying about what is going down. i couldn't care less what the theologians within each group say in the prospect of impending war. in other words, the issue is that the focus needs to be on politics and not on theology.

finally yes, i did misstate -- fatimids were in the period of the abbassids (although an umayyad state in spain did exist by that time). thanks for that. however, the umayyads, are, kinsmen of the caliph usman. mu'awiya was his cousin. 



Not toothless(none / 0) (#10)
by dmz on Tue Jan 02, 2007 at 01:59:42 PM EST

"this is an essay about "spin." everyone has their spin..."

Nope. You deliver some example of general sunni spin on Shia and then you say how Shia are actually dealing with it (Ali Eteraz Spin). 

"The Shi'a -- by way of today's Iran -- have attempted to neutralize the lie that is perpetuated against them (i.e. they are a Jewish conspiracy), by going after Israel. If they kill Jews, and free Jerusalem, surely no one will think they are a Jewish conspiracy."

That is not presented as spin (as you say). That is presented BY you as fact ( which I believe is hardly fact).

If I say, "Ali Eteraz is a toothless fellator," that is spin. If I later come back and recant and say, "Oh, my bad. Ali Eteraz is not toothless," that is still spin.

Why don't you just say you hate Iran and Shias and make an end of it.

We can skip the maneuvers.



[ Parent ]
me iran shias(none / 0) (#11)
by Ali Eteraz on Tue Jan 02, 2007 at 02:10:54 PM EST

Why don't you just say you hate Iran and Shias and make an end of it.

if i hated iran or shias why would i write essays like this 

or go on the radio to argue for non-military solutions w/r to iran?

give me a break.

at least have the balls to accuse me of taqiya like the islamophobes. this whole 'i know ali eteraz' true intentions crap is assinine at best.



[ Parent ]
None(none / 0) (#12)
by Yousuf on Tue Jan 02, 2007 at 02:23:57 PM EST

I dont think you hate the shia. But he has a point. when you say things like this:

 

"The Shi'a -- by way of today's Iran -- have attempted to neutralize the lie that is perpetuated against them (i.e. they are a Jewish conspiracy), by going after Israel. If they kill Jews, and free Jerusalem, surely no one will think they are a Jewish conspiracy."

 

you represent it as fact(which it is not) ...That is not spin. Its your opinion about why Iran supports Hezbollah and the palestinians. Also in a few previous articles you've mentioned that Iran would like to have control over Mecca and Medina..which again is quite far fetched for various reasons...

 

Maybe you should realize that sometimes the Iranians might not have some sinister motive behind everything they do..

 

 

 

 



[ Parent ]
Fine. Not hate.(none / 0) (#13)
by dmz on Tue Jan 02, 2007 at 02:30:43 PM EST

Hate is over-the-top. How about consistent grudge?

I can go back and present examples. Happy to do so.

This is one paragraph. Your explanatrion is thin. I HAVE to ask myself, "Why?" It is consistent.

I don't need balls to call you something you are or are not. "Balls" are required to stand by your words and explain or admit mistakes.



[ Parent ]
of course(none / 0) (#14)
by Ali Eteraz on Tue Jan 02, 2007 at 03:45:52 PM EST

i have a grudge agst iranian oligarchs, as i do agst iraqi thugs, and paki dictators, and amercan islamophobes

did u just 'discover' this? lol 

the fact is that hizbollah as irans satellite is not sinister, it is rational (from iran's pov) & all people know that including iranian bazaris who wondered why nejad wasn't doing more to suppor them. did u forget nejad's approval rating is a bushean 31%?

i would be happy to point i to iranian govt apologist blogs

no but the only one that exists is authored by nejad

the 60,000 other farsi language blogs r all anti iranian govt 

when u launch ur own apologist blog, dont call me 



[ Parent ]
Why would I call?(none / 0) (#16)
by dmz on Tue Jan 02, 2007 at 04:03:05 PM EST

This is/was a simple question.

You have continued to NOT address it and I will assume you are not planning to. Just a little ad-hom ink squirt and a dash.

OK. But the truth is I have spent a fair amount of time reading your (oh sorry, the whole Eteraz crew's) blog and I think I know enough.

Your attack of Ali Shariati is one that comes to mind. There are others. I'll get round to them. As time allows.

I would think you, as a future spokesperson for Shiism and Iran, would welcome feedback and criticism. That would be more fitting than saying "Shia actually DO NOT prefer anal sex." WTF?

Fair warning that you will be judged by people when you post. I thought you were aware of it. And it has been fair, though your response seems to indicate otherwise.

Not my problem.



[ Parent ]






um(none / 0) (#15)
by Ali Eteraz on Tue Jan 02, 2007 at 03:51:24 PM EST

yousuf

im the wrong person to attack for painting iranians as sinister. you should spend your energy affirmatively taking on blogs like captain's quarters and powerline.

you should read my left narrative on iran as to what i think should be done with iran. nothing sinister there.  

both you and dmz represent the best kind of armchair muslims. horrible for the simple reason that they spend most of their time venting their anger on muslims whose positions they dont even bother to learn. 



[ Parent ]
A word from the armchair muslim(none / 0) (#18)
by Yousuf on Tue Jan 02, 2007 at 06:37:10 PM EST

Hey look I was just trying to see if you had any facts to backup your claim ...  you haven't given any as of yet...

I like your blog and I thought I was going to have a discussion here on Eteraz.org instead of being labelled as horrible...

[ Parent ]










Ironies and Fifth Columns(none / 0) (#17)
by sigmund carl and alfred on Tue Jan 02, 2007 at 04:25:58 PM EST

"this is not an idealist essay; it does not inquire what a shi'a or a sunni ought to believe, or believe as a matter of dogma, but what they are taught, and how those things are constructed."

This essay, and that remark, are at the heart of the issue.

Notwithstanding all the hype, the fact remains that the Saudis and not the Israelis, are in Iran's nuclear crosshairs, first and foremost. Of course, that does not mean Israel is not at risk, but it does put the issue in perspective, at least in the near term.

The issue of 'what they are taught,' is really the heart of the issue. The fact remains that both KSA and Iran are highly dysfunctional. I wrote today that it is not the conflict that is fueling the dysfunctions that keep regional tensions high, but rather, it is the dysfunctions that continue to fan the flames. Unless and until those dysfunctions are addressed, the Iran-KSA conflict- and in fact, all the regional conflicts, will escalate.

That said, what is being played out is a kind of 'war by proxy.' While the vast majority of Shia and Sunni want no part of a scenario that might get out of hand, the fact remains that the 'power players' control 'what is taught and how those things are constructed.' The 'power players' can count on enough people beholden to them for power, priviledge and the gravy train, to do their bidding.

There is more than one real class struggle going on the Islamic world. There are the issues of many poor have nots and the very few elite and priviledged haves, but that is only a part of the story.

It is clear that the status quo can only remain if the 'what they are taught, and how those things are constructed,' as you put it.

Of course, there is an Islamic 'Fifth Column' that plays no small role in the matter.

There are far too many Muslims in the west that will defend the status quo in the Middle East, even as they seem determined to deprive their coreligionists of the freedoms they enjoy.

It is ironic that as reformers and others are imprisoned in the Middle East for their steadfast committment to freedom and democracy, there are far too many here that support the regimes and ideologies that keep them captive. That in turn, helps feed the escalating dysfunction.



[ Parent ]




Did I miss something???(none / 0) (#19)
by rusty57 on Thu Jan 04, 2007 at 01:47:13 AM EST

Re-reading Ali's post and the follow-up comments, I am still trying to figure out how most here have come to the conclusion that Ali hates Iranians and thinks that the Shia are a Jewish conspiracy! I thought he made it quite clear that he did not accept the credibility of the story that the Shia/Sunni split was caused by a disingenuous Jewish convert.

For my money, the theory that the Ayatollahs are obsessed with this apocryphal story could help to explain their over-the-top hatred of Jews, even going so far as hosting a conference of nazis and holocaust denyers.

Back in the 80's, when the Iran/Iraq War was raging, I coudn't figure out why Iran didn't reverse their anti-Israel policy during a time when they desperately needed their help keeping their American supplied weapons operational. The Israelis considered Iraq the greater threat, and tried to convince the Americans to end their tacit support of Saddam Hussein.

It seemed from a pragmatic standpoint, that Israel and Iran had the same enemies, but all that was managed was a secret deal to for a limited supply of arms. At the same time, Ayatollah Khomeini couldn't stop droning on about annihilating the zionist entity.....now I think I have the answer why! 



Thanks for making the case, Rusty(none / 0) (#20)
by dmz on Thu Jan 04, 2007 at 02:26:27 AM EST

"It seemed from a pragmatic standpoint, that Israel and Iran had the same enemies, but all that was managed was a secret deal to for a limited supply of arms. At the same time, Ayatollah Khomeini couldn't stop droning on about annihilating the zionist entity.....now I think I have the answer why!"

Yes, Yes! It is because Ayatollah Khomeini was insecure and harbors a deep desire to prove he is no jewish patsy. It makes all the sense in the world. I get it now. I'm sorry I did not originally understand that eteraz was making this point.

This is also, some will remember, the issue behind Reverend Jesse Jackson's "Hymietown" remark. Jesse Jackson was reacting to the 7th century remark that New York and the Rainbow Coalition are BOTH going to be Jewish strong-holds.

 Ironically, Michael Richards, Kramer on the Seinfeld Show, also plays into this plot. His absurd reaction to heckling shows the underlying pressure that NY Jews feel about this ancient smear on their religion and his outburst was really just misdirected anger at Reverend Al Sharpton.

Plus there is the whole Tito factor. And Farrakhan. And Pam at Atlas Shrugged.

You see how it all comes together.

One hopes this site will not just be a place of confusion or worse.



[ Parent ]
a non-answer(none / 0) (#21)
by rusty57 on Thu Jan 04, 2007 at 12:36:46 PM EST
You're still not addressing my point! During war, alliances are formed and broken usually based on what is of greatest benefit to each nation. So, during the Iran/Iraq War, why didn't Ayatollah Khomeini  cut a deal that could have given Iran a decisive edge in the war? Ali Eteraz's idea is the only plausible answer I've heard so far.

[ Parent ]
Otherwise a bright light gone dim(none / 0) (#22)
by dmz on Thu Jan 04, 2007 at 01:02:03 PM EST

Rusty

I have read many of your comments and you are particularly centered and insightful

Except here:

"The Shi'a -- by way of today's Iran -- have attempted to neutralize the lie that is perpetuated against them (i.e. they are a Jewish conspiracy), by going after Israel. If they kill Jews, and free Jerusalem, surely no one will think they are a Jewish conspiracy."

Although Ali has left this point a bit unclear, which begs MANY questions, he initially attempted to blow it off as SPIN.

Disinformation, even when it is CLEARLY intended to be illustrate spin, which is not the case here, will be read and regurgitated by careless readers like truth as told by self-appointed experts. This is a problem. We don't know if the intent is malicious or just negligent.

In either case, now we have you taking the ball and running with it. I cannot take seriously the prospect that Iranian leadership would not negotiate with Isreal during the Iran-Iraq war because of a RUMOR (one if have never heard) that Shia started as a jewish plot to split Islam power in 7th century Arabia.

The rumor is a big enough absurdity. The fact that you take the response seriously as well only attests to the power of disinformation.  



[ Parent ]
But still(none / 0) (#23)
by dmz on Thu Jan 04, 2007 at 01:13:39 PM EST

As I said, it is hard for me to conceive, yet still, you may have the honest question "Why?"

Ok. Why?

Arab, Persian or any other country, doing business with Israel is dicey as a "Muslim Country" since they all consider Israel a Western anathema, a thorn in the side of Islamic middle east. A symbol of Western power and Islamic weakness. Etc.

Nevertheless, occassionally, Muslim countries have to be practical, recognise and engage Israel as a ally or partner in some respect.

Iran has made its bones on fighting Western hegemony since the revolution. That was WHAT the whole revolution was about: getting rid of a western puppet shah and putting in a cleric who could kick some western asses.

And so they did. I don't think Ayatollah Khoemeini took American hostages to prove Shias aren't jewish anymore than they did not collude with Israel against Iraq for the same reason.

Iraq had US support against Iran. How is Israel supposed to back Iran?

The math doesn't work, you see? Pretty obvious.



[ Parent ]
just one problem!(none / 0) (#24)
by rusty57 on Fri Jan 05, 2007 at 01:29:13 AM EST

The U.S. and Israel were on opposing sides during the Iran-Iraq War. While the U.S. was giving covert support to Iraq, the Israelis reasoned that Saddam's Iraq was their greatest threat, and gave support to the Iranians long before the Reagan administration cooked up the Iran-contra scheme.

It's understandable that zionism and the creation of the modern state of Israel were greeted with hostility by Israel's neighbours, but why was it so important to the ayatollahs that they show an even greater hostility towards Israel than the Arabs who were directly involved in the wars?



[ Parent ]
Still no(none / 0) (#25)
by dmz on Fri Jan 05, 2007 at 10:26:06 AM EST

Israel did not "give" aid to anyone. They traded it. The US also sold weapons to Iran.

This is not the kind of military aid that the US gives to Israel. It is not a grant. It COSTS. Millionaires are made on blood money. See: no bid contracts in Iraq. Billions of Dollars.

The fact that SOME Israelis sold some weapons to Iran means little. The strategy could have been to fuel BOTH sides for as long as possible without allowing one side to get the upper hand. That is what happened with a million dead by some estimates.

Still we have to go back to some logical fallacies.

1. Why would Iran buy weapons from Israel if they are so concerned about their reputation?

2. Where do you draw the conclusion that Iran shows "an even greater hostility towards Israel than the Arabs"?

You can read on this blog an in the news everyday that Sunni terrorists groups and arab politicians demonize Israel on a daily basis. Zawahiri included.

Islamic fundamentalists probably believe that you cannot defeat Israel until the great satan has been defeated. That sounds like the Zawahiri rhetoric.

Still a unfathomable proposition.

In my opinion.



[ Parent ]
some Israelis sold arms!!(none / 0) (#26)
by rusty57 on Sat Jan 06, 2007 at 01:26:11 AM EST

Specifically, the trade was about getting Iranian Jews out of Iran in return for arms. 

The article I cited gives another reason why the Israeli Government sided with  Iran: 

In 1983, then-Defense Minister Ariel Sharon blurted out during a                US speaking engagement that Israel sold arms to Iran because it                regarded Iraq as the greater enemy, and that the sales had been                thoroughly discussed with US officials. US officials acknowledged                such discussions but denied that Israel had US permission." 

And from Wikipedia "Iran/Iraq War":

The London Observer also estimated that Israel's arms sales to Iran during the war totalled US$ 500 million annually,[22

I'll leave up to you to decide which side hates Israel and the Jews the most. My point is that I would have expected most of the wrath to come from Arab nations directly bordering Israel.



[ Parent ]
















You beat him, Ali.(none / 0) (#27)
by kitkat on Mon Jan 08, 2007 at 09:03:31 AM EST
Psssst.  Ali.  One of my favorite political scientists and international relations prediction-makers just said what you said, only 4 days later.  I don't think he came up with this idea from you...I doubt he reads Eteraz.  He doesn't have it linked in his blogroll, anyway.  I think he's occupied w/ family, students, and reading a lot of Arabic news sources so he can summarize them in his blog.  (He's actually an Arabic-language media specialist, not a political games prediction specialist, but he seems to be pretty good at the latter and enjoy throwing it into his blog.  Nevertheless, I'm not sure he goes around reading all the other political games predicters' sites like yours, so I doubt this is uncredited ripping you off.)  Anyway, since you seem to like to know when you might have "gotten things right" because other smart people are saying the same thing, I thought I'd tell you.




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