Permalink

A Muslim of Conscience's Bullet Point Attack On Apostasy


By Ali Eteraz
Posted on Sun Mar 18, 2007 at 09:04:26 AM EST
Tags: apostasy (all tags)

This will serve all Muslims of conscience against all extremist Muslims who argue that killing people for leaving Islam (even if the victim denies that he has left Islam) is legitimate or permissible behavior.
  • When a violent Muslim calls someone an apostate, a Muslim of conscience must reply that in the Quran, which is the highest book of Islam, there is no earthly punishment for apostasy, only in the hereafter. Quran 2:217. This means that matters of punshing apostates are put off until the "hereafter."
  • The only Islamic scholar who has argued that there is a Quranic basis for the death penalty for apostasy in Allamah Mawdudi. He relies on Quran 9:11-12. He argues that the word "pledges" refers to the adoption of Islam. This is incorrect because a reasonable reading of the verse reveals that the word "pledges" is referring to a treaty, not to Islam.
  • Furthermore, a Muslim of conscience must recognize all Quranic verses which themselves show that God did not want that Muslims kill anyone for leaving the faith. The operative verse here is 4:137: "Behold, as for those who come to believe, and then deny the truth, and again come to believe, and again deny the truth, and thereafter grow stubborn in their denial of the truth - God will not forgive them, nor will He guide them in any way." If God wanted apostates dead, then why in this verse does God entertain the prospect of repeatedly choosing and alternating between belief and disbelief? Yes, God is saying that he will not forgive such people, but he is not saying that they ought to be killed by humans in this world. Every time the death threat for apostasy shows up, this verse must be used in rebuttal. Repeatedly. Repetition teaches even the donkey. Other verses that suppor this verse include 2:217, 2:108, 3:90, 16:106.
  • When violent Muslims realize that they cannot use the Quran to legitimize the death threat, they will turn to what they call the "Sunnah of Muhammad." They argue that the Sunnah of Muhammad is equal to the Quran such that even if the Quran is silent (which 4:137 teaches that the Quran is not) the Sunnah they claim is not silent on the matter. To these Muslims, determining what is the Sunnah of Muhammad comes by looking at the hadith narrations in the various hadith compilations. These extremist Muslims immediately move to setting forth all the hadiths that they know to "prove" that death for apostasy is permissible in Islam. Such Muslims must be stopped before they are even able to start rattling off the hadith. A Muslim of conscience must do three things immediately:
    • First, he must say that he does agree that the Sunnah of Muhammad is equal to the Quran, because the fact of the matter is that the Quran itself states this to be true. 3:164.
    • Second, he must ask the extremist to prove that the Sunnah of Muhammad is derived from hadith. Most extremists do not know how to do this. Those that will venture a response will usually say something to the effect of: "all the scholars agree that we derive the Sunnah of Muhammad from the hadith narrations." A Muslim of conscience knows that only "some" of the scholars derive the Sunnah from the hadith narrations. A Muslim of conscience knows that other scholars agree the Sunnah is not derived from the hadith. Rather, Sunnah is derived from a) the perpetual practice of something b) unanimously performed by the Prophet and all his companions. Usually an extremist won't bother to reply to this point because it destroys the entire premise of their position. [Fn 1]. As such, one has to move to point three.
    • Third, a Muslim of conscience will say: "ok, let us say that I accept that the Sunnah is derived from the hadith narrations. What do your hadith narrations say about killing apostates?"
  • At this point, an extremist Muslim will gleefully quote the most famous of all the "kill" hadiths: "It is narrated that the Prophet said: whoever changes his religion kill him." Bukhari, No. 2854. The response to this hadith -- and to all of its progeny hadith narrations is simple: this hadith is inauthentic. Why is this hadith inauthentic? Because it contradicts the Quran. Why should we care if a hadith contradicts the Quran?  Answer: we are supposed to. In hadith sciences, a hadith has to pass a two part evaluation for being deemed legitimate, a matn (textual) analysis and an isnad (chain of narration) analysis. This particular hadith (and some of its progeny) pass the isnad test. They do not part the matn test. As such, this hadith is inauthentic. How exactly does this hadith not pass the matn test? As so:
    • It contradicts the verse in the Quran which states: "there is no compulsion in religion." 2:256.
    • The Qur'an has strictly disallowed the imposition of the death penalty except in two specific cases – one is when a person is guilty of murdering another and the other is when a person is guilty of activities such as terrorism. 5:32.
  • If the extremist Muslim is honest, he will accept that he effectively has no argument. However, since hadith hurling, without any rhyme or reason, is a favorite pasttime of such extremists, he is likely to take parting shots with other hadith. One narration involves the Prophet's directive to kill an apostate woman. This hadith is inauthentic on isnad grounds. Another narration involves an apostate whom the Prophet asked four times to repent. This is also inauthentic based on isnad.
  • An intelligent, but flustered extremist, at this point, will resort to throwing around words like naskh. This is a technical legal term referring to the science of abrogation i.e. when one verse of the Quran "abrogates" or "cancels" another verse of the Quran. The extremist will say that the hadith narrations he has cited abrogate the Quranic verses a Muslim of conscience has cited either because a) they came later in time, or b) that is simply how the scholars have decided. This is an incredibly disingenous argument on the extremist's behalf. First, there is no singular theory of abrogation in Islam. Increasingly, scholars do not even accept the theory at all. Classically many did but a generous estimate reveals that there are at least 42 different theories of abrogation. Second, one must ask the extremist to demonstrate how he knows for a fact that the hadiths he has cited came later in time? Third, fact remains that there is considerable authority in Islam which does not accept that a hadith can abrogate a verse of the Quran. The extremist will continue to insist that all of these contrary opinions be ignored and his opinion on the theory of abrogation be accepted. There is no reason to do this. At a later time I will delve into the naskh debate in more detail, addressing the usual tactics used by extremists and there will be a link going out from here.
  • In conclusion, the aim of this "pamphlet" is three fold. 1) To "jam" any discussion with an extremist Muslim in an intelligent and coherent manner. Usually, Muslims of conscience run away from the apostasy debate. There is no reason to do so. 2) To provide to lawyers in the Muslim world, an outline of how to construct an argument when defending individuals accused of apostasy. 3) To provide high profile Muslim writers and thinkers (who do not know as much about Islamic Law) a way to deflect accusations of apostasy by "jamming" the debate. Fact is, the death threat for apostasy is usually predicated on the extremist trying to imply that the victim does not know as much about Islam as the extremist. If the victim can "jam" the debate, he effectively counters this point.
  • Obviously, we must be realists. Most extremist Muslims around the world do not engage in a "debate" with the people whom they accuse of apostasy. Often they simply shoot them, hang them, attack them. However, we have to hope that if we diffuse knowledge and rule of law far and wide, this will decrease. Not only that, but that if we keep at it, we can get average lawmakers in the Muslim world to introduce apostasy pieces of legislation which would treat anyone who threatens or carries out death to an apostate as a criminal homicide. This is why extremists are so afraid of legislation. It makes room for "persuasion." This is why any serious Muslim reformist must support all legislative activities in Muslim countries.
  • I hope it is clear that this is not an "air tight" way of proving that there is no death penalty for apostasy. However, it is a very good and easy to follow one. It can be attacked from a number of perspectives; however, that is not such a big deal, because if a person attacks your argument, then they have effectively accepted your major premise: that their opinion is, at best, only an opinion, and not certitude. A Muslim of conscience does not care to have his opinion rule the day. He only cares that alternative opinions exist to those that believe there is only one.
  • Fn 1: In the event that the extremist does want to debate this point, I will insert a link at a later time detailing how to conduct that argument.

< I Hate That | Good Country Music By A Muslim >

Login

Make a new account

Username:
Password:

Tags: apostasy (all tags)
Display: Sort:

Awesome effort(none / 0) (#1)
by dmz on Sun Mar 18, 2007 at 09:40:42 AM EST

and a true public service.

These pamphlets should be circulated and discussed.

With such resources available to Eteraz.org, why exactly is an Asad Qur'an required.

Take the Arabic, re-translate and provide the Eteraz tafsir.

Who needs these crusty old scholars? They've been nothing but handmaidens to tyranny for centuries anyway.

Review. Renew.

I'd rather contribute to Eteraz Qur'ans.

Hire people if you don't possess the particular skills.

Would still be less money than buying someone else's





i like it(none / 0) (#2)
by Maleeha on Sun Mar 18, 2007 at 10:27:26 AM EST
it makes complete sense to me. in fact its so obviously clear that to say otherwise seems foolish. 



Apostasy(none / 0) (#3)
by Sabir on Sun Mar 18, 2007 at 01:31:29 PM EST
I'm not quite sure the contradiction between 2:256 and the ahadith that appear to prescribe the death penalty for apostasy is so clear. Don't get me wrong, I am absolutely in favor of religious freedom, and I vehemently oppose the death penalty for apostasy. But I don't think the case against it is as simple as dismissing certain ahadith as inauthentic. Extremist Muslims didn't invent the punishment for apostasy; their views are founded on a long-standing and widespread opinion amongst classical jurists based on these ahadith. If that opinion could be refuted simply by claiming that the ahadith supporting it are inauthentic and citing 2:256 as proof, there wouldn't be a controversy to begin with.

However, I do think it's clear that 2:256 establishes religious freedom as a general, normative principle. Once it can be proven that apostasy is nothing more that a carve-out exception to this general principle, Muslims of conscience can turn the debate around and put the onus on those favoring the death penalty for apostasy to prove the continuing relevance and need for the exception. Logically speaking, once a general principle is established, any exceptions to that general principle must be continually justified.

On this point, I think it would help to note the manner in which people conceptualized religious and political affiliation in the time of the Prophet (SAW). In seventh century Arabia, the tribe was the relevant political unit. All political relations and activity revolved around the tribe. People were identified in larger Arabian society by the tribe from which they hailed; your tribal connection was like your passport. And religion was inseparable from the larger set of customs and traditions that characterized each tribe. In this context, Muslims, through their rejection of so many elements of traditional Arabian culture, effectively came to represent a separate tribe. This was the reason why Quraysh so vehemently opposed the Prophet (SAW) and his followers. It wasn't just because they rejected aspects of the Qurayshi religion and culture; it was because they compromised the tribe (this is apparent in Quraysh's failed attempts to compromise with Muhammad by co-opting him and giving Islam a place within the tribe). There was thus no notion of being Muslim in belief but politically neutral like there is today. If you were Muslim, you were part of a distinct political movement whether you liked it or not.

What's critical here is the sacrosanctity with which the tribal bond was regarded. Leaving the tribe was considered a heinous act, particularly since the tribe was a collective with a very limited heirarchy that depended upon its members for security. If you did leave your tribe, you would quickly find another one to join so that your life and property would be protected. And in an era where raids were a common and accepted feature of tribal relations (Dr. Sherman Jackson calls this the "balance of terror"), tribes couldn't afford to lose members to other tribes. Anyone who escaped their tribe and joined another could provide invaluable information that their new tribe could use to gain a distinct advantage over the other tribe.

In order to succeed as an autonomous and self-sufficient entity, the nascent Muslim community thus had to establish itself as an independent tribe. Apostating from Islam was therefore equivalent to abandoning the tribe. And given the pracarious and vulnerable position the first Muslims found themselves in vis-a-vis the other tribes (coupled with the unique problem of Munafiqeen; infiltrators), Muslims could least afford to lose members to other tribes. The death penalty for apostasy can therefore be understood as essential to the very survival of the Muslim community. It was a drastic measure, but not any different from what any vulnerable tribe would do to a treasonous member.

Today, however, the situation is very different. The tribal structure is no longer relevant in international politics. Islam itself is in no danger of dying out. It's possibile to be Muslim and belong to any political movement within the spectrum, or no political movement at all. Unlike seventh century Arabia, simply saying that you're Muslim doesn't imply anything about your political status or affiliation. Given the general principle of religious freedom in Islam, I think the conditions are such that the carve-out exception for apostasy is no longer needed and can be abandoned.

Contextual(none / 0) (#4)
by Ali Eteraz on Sun Mar 18, 2007 at 01:52:41 PM EST

Sabir, when you place the entire debate in context, what you have argued makes perfect sense.

A short way of saying it is that the nation-state has made apostasy issue moot.

However, in my experience, when dealing with death penalty for apostasy fans, their usual rejoinder is simply: well, don't worry, we'll get rid of the nation-state and establish the khilafat and it'll be all good (i.e. back to when being muslim will determine citizenship).

I am glad that you wrote what you did, because it does a very good job of presenting the contextual position. I may link to it in the near future from the post itself.



[ Parent ]
even though you said the "k" word...(none / 0) (#5)
by zahed on Sun Mar 18, 2007 at 02:43:41 PM EST
...don't delete your post! As was said before, an awesome effort and very much appreciated. This will go into my debate file.

[ Parent ]






Good work, Ali.(none / 0) (#6)
by Fahad on Sun Mar 18, 2007 at 05:53:11 PM EST
.



Apostacy(none / 0) (#7)
by TarekFatah on Mon Mar 19, 2007 at 06:42:58 AM EST

Dear Ali,

Congratulations on a brilliantly argued position. However, the killing of innocent Muslims, accused of apostacy, will not be stopped by well argued positions such as you have made. The problem is that accusations of apostacy allow tyrants to eliminate their politcal opponents, be it at the state level or in public discourse. Islam for these men in authority, is primarily a tool to retain power.

When the Sudanese governemnt hanged Mahmoud Taha, the 76 year old leader of the Republican Brothers in January 1985 on charges of apostasy, the 'crime' of apostacy was not even on the law books of the country. Yet the man was killed, and they say, he faced death with a smile.

Variations of Ata's killing can be seen when an Egyptian blogger is jailed for "insulting Islam" or as is the case in the diaspora, where fellow Muslims are silenced by accusations of them being anti-Islam.

In any case, your wrote well.

Tarek Fatah
Toronto, Canada



my thoughts(none / 0) (#8)
by jinnzaman on Mon Mar 19, 2007 at 01:36:35 PM EST
I wrote about apostasy quite some time ago my blog.

[ Parent ]
im going to threadjack myself JM(none / 0) (#9)
by Ali Eteraz on Mon Mar 19, 2007 at 01:54:19 PM EST

bc u are doing some pretty inconsistent things on your site.

somebody said this about a shaykh you respect:

<span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">Yet, it is no exageration to state that he was one of the most active proponents in our times of blatant acts of shirk</span></span>

and you called this  takfeer

http://jinnzaman.blogspot.com/2006/03/boycotting-al-maghrib-institute.html#c114420877911032608

if you recall you spent the entire last week castigating people on this blog for suggesting that an saying that someone is engaged in an 'act of kufr' is not the same thing as takfeer

i can get the cites if necssary bit im sure most people remember

explain yourself please 



[ Parent ]
hmm(none / 0) (#10)
by jinnzaman on Mon Mar 19, 2007 at 02:01:35 PM EST

I'm not denying those statements, however, they aren't pertinent to the issue of apostasy since the people who were being accused of being mushrik or kaffir were Muslims. Apostates are people who openly reject Islam. Takfeer is a separate legal question from the issue of apostasy. 

My blog post was about the rational justification of the punishment of apostasy, not takfeer.

Also, what do you mean by "explain myself"? Are you referring to the post on apostasy or about how I can object to Yasser Qadhi's takfeer of Shaykh Muhammad Allawi al-Makki while also holding the position that (1) apostasy is a crime that (2) warrants a position? If its the former, the post is self-explanatory and if its the latter, then I've already pointed out how its not "inconsistent" since the topic of takfeer, although related, is ultimately a separate question from whether apostasy is a crime and should be punished.  When we're talking about the punishment for apostasy, its about people who have openly reneged their faith and have explicitly rejected clarification on their disbelief after efforts from the state.

 



[ Parent ]
again.(none / 0) (#11)
by Ali Eteraz on Mon Mar 19, 2007 at 02:04:55 PM EST

threadjack means that the commentator talks about something unrelated to the post.

my question was.

last week you said that takfir is when u declare a person to be a rejector of truth. however, saying that a person is engaged in an 'act of kufr' or 'saying something that is kufr' is not takfir.

i have just pointed you to a comment at your blog in which someone accused a shaykh you respect of engaging in 'acts of shirk'

and in the comments you characterize this as takfir

in order to be consistent either you need to rescind what you said last week here on this site, or clarify that al maghrib is not engaged in takfir



[ Parent ]
hmm(none / 0) (#12)
by jinnzaman on Mon Mar 19, 2007 at 02:20:57 PM EST

The post was self-explanatory on the issue.

I stated that it was possible for a person to engage in an act of kufr without being a kaffir because it depends on their intent. For example, a person may accidentally engage in an act of kufr, such as the statement of the beduoin upon finding his camel who exclaimed to Allah "O Lord! You are my servant and I am your Lord!" out of sheer ecstasy. If a Muslim actually believes that they are God and that God is His servant, they have committed an act of both kufr and shirk. However, the Beduoin who uttered this statement didn't intend to make such a statement, but did so in a state of joy or ecstasy. The underlying test for when acts of kufr become actual kufr is their intent.  If a person intentionally, knowingly, and willingly engages in an act of kufr, then they can be classified as a kaffir.  If a person does not intentionally desire to engage in kufr, but realizes that they had a faulty understanding of theology or made a statement in an improper frame of mind (such as due to temporary insanity, drunkeness, or ecstasy), then they cannot be declared a kaffir since the requisite element of intent hasn't been established.

With regards to Shaykh Yasser, he accused Shaykh Allawi al-Makki of (1) being guilty of shirk in all three categories of tawheed and (2) being the foremost promoter of shirk in the Ummah. According to his own definition in articles, lectures, and posts, when a person violates the three prongs of tawheed, he is a mushrik. So I called upon Shaykh Yasser either to clarify his statements or renounce them.

With regards to the second statement, this is much more serious since he accused Shaykh Allawi al-Makki of propagating shirk. Their is a distinction between accidentally engaging in shirk and propagating. The latter implies that a person is intentionally and knowingly propagating shirk in order to subvert tawheed.

Furthermore, the strongest proof that he engaged in takfeer was that when I requested that he either clarify his statement or renounce it, he did neither. Had he not desired to engage in tafkeer of Shaykh Allawi, he would've said "I don't want to engage in takfeer and you've misintepreted my statements." Neither he nor his organization did this. Thus, one can reasonably conclude that they supported the statement by Shaykh Yasser.

 



[ Parent ]
Al-Maghrib(none / 0) (#13)
by anaeem on Mon Mar 19, 2007 at 02:43:56 PM EST
Aside from the takfir and apostacy issue, thanks JM for highlighting this facet of al-maghrib teaching.  Personally, I've always had an uneasy feeling about them even from the little experience I've had with them.  Their promotional presentations, though a bit too slick for my tastes, often have a sensational effect in the younger crowds from what I've seen.


[ Parent ]
hmm(none / 0) (#21)
by jinnzaman on Mon Mar 19, 2007 at 03:59:27 PM EST

I have no problem with the content of the Al Maghrib curriculum, but when they try to generalize that other Muslim scholars are innovators, polythiests, and disbelievers, then I obviously have to disagree with them and step in.

They do a lot of good work and should be supported, but people have to understand that some of the things they teach simply conflict with the jamhur of the 'Ulema. 

 



[ Parent ]




why not use talent for emancipatory readings? (none / 0) (#35)
by sarah on Tue Mar 20, 2007 at 03:50:55 AM EST

you're the type of person who would crucify a Al-hallaj and pat yourself on the back for fullfilling your legal and religious duties wouldn't you?

To engage in a debate with you involves a kind collusion with you- to argue with someone means you agree there's something worth arguing about- you ironically reinforce the value of their position.

Unfortunately it's a necessity as there are too many intellectual handmaidens like yourself to bearded men who issue fatwas on writers.  to retreat from absurdity is to allow it to continue on its farcical cycle of repetition and injustice.

so i'm glad there are people on this site who can engage with you using your own tools to deconstruct your argument.

sentiment tells me i don't even want to go there.  

 



[ Parent ]
I am. (none / 0) (#36)
by jinnzaman on Tue Mar 20, 2007 at 04:15:09 AM EST

I am using my talents for emancipatory readings, and by empancipation, I mean the liberation of Muslims, both intellectually and politically, from Western hegemony. In my worldview, the sole reason mankind exists is for the worship of Allah (subhana wa ta'ala). Rights only exist in relation to those granted by the Creator. These rights can be those (1) pertaining to Himself and (2) pertaining to human relationships. Most of the rights that are highly criticized are those pertaining to (1). Irrespective of the harm/benefit of the material world of fulfilling these commands, the harm/benefit of the afterlife of not fulfilling the commands of the Creator are substantially greater. The entire conception of man as a rational agent whose sole purpose is to promote autonomy is simply not the reason why humans were created (namely worship). Reason is merely incidental, not instrumental to human existence. To deny the obligations of worship imposed by the Creator is to deny the purpose of man Himself. If you disagree with me, thats fine, but all I ask is that people substantiate their arguments with (a) rational proofs and (b) textual justifications. If they want to utilize classical texts and scholars, then they have to be consistent in their application. If you want to argue usul al fiqh, then you have to either operate within the existing legal matrix established by the four schools of law, or you have to develop your own usul al fiqh that is entirely independent and based on the totality of the texts.   

Also, it would be prudent, when making an argument, not to engage in racial stereotypes and derogatory terms, such as "bearded men" or "mullahs." Whether a man has a beard or is clean-shaven is irrelevant to the argument which he is propounding.  



[ Parent ]
so, just out of curiousity...(none / 0) (#39)
by Lawrence of Arabia on Tue Mar 20, 2007 at 08:30:46 AM EST
why do you think it is the case that so many people of faith find your vision anything but emancipatory and in many cases outright disturbing?  and the answer here needs to go beyond "b/c they have been fooled by western ideals" or something to that effect...the question then is just made more precise: why do they find another account of freedom, rather than yours, more appealing?

i ask, b/c it seems to me, with your positivist account of the law, you are just stuck saying we are stubbornly disobedient wretches who do not wish to obey the law of god?

LoA.
Lawrence of Arabia
[ Parent ]
towing the hezbi line(none / 0) (#41)
by dmz on Tue Mar 20, 2007 at 10:28:47 AM EST

i ask, b/c it seems to me, with your positivist account of the law, you are just stuck saying we are stubbornly disobedient wretches who do not wish to obey the law of god?

..who do not wish to obey our far-flung impression of the law of God.

One common idea, which needs to be challenged, is the idea that Islam was great and can be great again if we all return to the ways of the Golden Age of Islam. So we read the 7th to 11th century texts, try to figure out what the scholars were saying, aggressive jihad, use of middle ages remedies for health problems instead of western medicine, soap optional bathing with lots of musky oils....etc.

This will all be more compelling when the next Muslim physicist works out the details for a time travel machine and we can all be sahaba. 

Til then, I suggest we move forward in time. Islam has lost nothing. It is the people who have degraded over time. This has nothing to do with Islam and alot to do with other things.

Those other things need to be looked at.

 



[ Parent ]
good point dmz(none / 0) (#44)
by Daniel Haar on Tue Mar 20, 2007 at 10:54:57 AM EST
"So we read the 7th to 11th century texts, try to figure out what the scholars were saying... [about the] use of middle ages remedies for health problems instead of western medicine" - dmz

I agree completely that this is a silly way to view revelation.  We must separate the universal from the time-bound.  Medicine improves, so do other natural and social sciences.  So does epistemology.  Our understanding of revelation must change given new forms of knowledge of the world that God created.  We should not be bound by cultural practices at the time of the Prophet, be they related to clothing or medicine.  Ibn Khaldun's writings on the latter are quite instructive, if we want the support of a "traditional scholar": "The medicine mentioned in religious tradition is of the (Bedouin) type. It is in no way part of the divine revelation. (Such medical matters) were merely (part of) Arab custom and happened to be mentioned in connection with the circumstances of the Prophet, like other things that were customary in his generation. They were not mentioned in order to imply that that particular way of practicing (medicine) is stipulated by the religious law. Muhammad was sent to teach us the religious law. He was not sent to teach us medicine or any other ordinary matter. In connection with the story of the fecundation of the palms, he said: 'You know more about your worldly affairs (than I).'"

[ Parent ]

Universal?(none / 0) (#56)
by jinnzaman on Tue Mar 20, 2007 at 12:02:36 PM EST

Do universals even exist? Ibn Rushd and Ibn Taymiyyah both wrote scathing critiques on the very notion of deriving claims of universality based on particular conditions or attributes. Which "universal" laws are you referring to?

If by "universal laws" you mean Islamic law, then this doesn't resolve the tension you are complaining against since laws are presumed to be universal since the prophethood of Rasulullah (sallahu alayhi wa sallam) is considered universal. Unless a text or overriding social necessity (al-masalih al-daruriyah)  shows why the law should be restricted, its presumed to be universal. For example, Ibn Taymiyyah refused to proclaim the Hadd punishment for consuming intoxicating substances against the Mongols, who had accepted Islam in belief but not the Shari'ah because he concluded that they would not terrorize people if they were inebbriated. However, even though this social necessity impgined upon the universal command, such an exception to the universal rule of prohibition on consumption of alcoholic substances was reinforced after the social necessity dissipated. 

Furthermore, as I pointed out above, fatwas are given within the particular circumstances of a people or society.  This is why each of the four schools of law have different juristic principles for accommodating such differences. For the Malikis, its the principle of al-Masalih al-Mursala. For the Hanafis, they look at 'Urf. and so on and so forth. 

Allama Ali Haydar wrote in his commentary on the Mejelle,  the Ottoman Hanafi commercial law code that:

Customs and habitual practices are only considered decisive in establishing legal rulings if there is no primary legal text (nass) regarding that issue that is to be decided upon. If there is a primary legal text relating to it, then it is obligatory to act on. It is not permitted to leave a primary legal text (nass) for customary practices, because no human has the right to change the primary texts, and the primary texts are stronger [f: in their legal standing] than customary practices, because the latter could be baseless (batil)…

(Item 39:) It is not denied that rulings change as times change

He said (Allah have mercy on him): The rulings that may change as times change are those that are based on customary practices and habits, because as times change the needs of people change. Based on this, customary practices and habits change, and rulings [f: based on these] change . As for rulings derived from the primary bases of Sacred Law [f: the Qur’an, Sunna, scholarly consensus (ijma`), and rulings derived from these based on scholarly analogy (qiyas), these do not change, unless they [themselves] were build on customary practices or habits. ” [Allama Ali Haydar, Durar al-Hukkam fi Sharh Majallat al-Ahkam]

Again, no matter how different a culture may be, the primary injunctions of the Shari'ah stay the same. This is why its important to make a distinction between conclusive texts and those with multiple meanings.  



[ Parent ]
you agree with me(none / 0) (#58)
by Daniel Haar on Tue Mar 20, 2007 at 12:15:31 PM EST

Something universal is always applicable.  Isn't revelation universal?  Or did Muhammad only come to help the Arabs?  You say that "Again, no matter how different a culture may be, the primary injunctions of the Shari'ah stay the same."  So you are really supporting my argument that certain aspects of Islamic law are universally applicable and that some change depending on culture.  We agree on this general principle --   good!  But we probably disagree on the size and nature of this set of "primary injunctions" revealed in the Qur'an and Sunnah.  C'est la vie, mon frere!  I think the "primary injunctions" are either of a general nature, such as justice, or purely religious, such as  prayer and the other pillars, etc., while the specifics, like the proper kind of political organization, must be changed in different cultural settings.



[ Parent ]
Its the Reverse!(none / 0) (#60)
by jinnzaman on Tue Mar 20, 2007 at 12:18:27 PM EST

I wasn't agreeing with anyone, I was just stating the opinions of a faqih who lived at the turn of the 20th century. :P

So if anyone agrees with anyone, we both agree with him (rahma tullah alayh).

Whats the basis for you reasoning in dividing injunctions from primary and secondary? Would you deem the hadd punishments to be primary or secondary since most of them are conclusively established from the Qur'an and Sunnah? 

 

 



[ Parent ]








hmmm(none / 0) (#53)
by jinnzaman on Tue Mar 20, 2007 at 11:51:11 AM EST

Again, you've accused me of being a part of hizb e tehrir without any proof. This is an act of slander, which is a major sin. I've openly stated I'm not a member of Hizb e Tehrir nor any other Islamist group. I've debated with members of Hizb e Tehrir in real life and on public forums in opposition to their views.

The only views I espouse are those of the Traditionalist paradigm in aqeedah, fiqh, and tasawwuf. I consider myself to be a part of Ahl us Sunnah waal Jam'ah. 

By all means, please show me where any of my opinions are exclusively linked to any Hizbi article and not merely the opinions of the 'Ulema.

Citing the opinions of the 'Ulema does not make you a member of Hizb e Tehrir. This smear campaign to invalidate the arguments I'm propounding merely because you aren't clever enough to respond to needs to stop.

In my post on the obligatory nature of the Khalifah, I never once appealed to the golden age myth you are referring to. I focused purely on the legal verdicts of the fuqaha. I adhere to the Hanafi madhab of the Deobandi persuasion. Show me one Deobandi scholar who doesn't espouse similar views. Unless, of course, you are going to accuse Deobandis of being members of Hizb e Tehrir. Please try to come up with more cogent insults in the future.

With regards to your claim that Islamic law is stuck in the middle ages, if that were so, then why do 'Ulema allow the use of the internet, television, printing press? Its because they've expanded Islamic law to incorporate new social, technological, and economic conditions. The first rule of issuing a fatwa is that a faqih must look at the particular circumstances and conditions that people are in. A fatwa from an Indian Hanafi Scholar might be radically different from a fatwa from an Arab scholar, such as on the issue of the mawlid and tawassul, which are more strictly regulated by Deobandi 'Ulema since India happens to be a country where open shirk occurs. 

 



[ Parent ]
Misidentification: not sin(none / 0) (#54)
by dmz on Tue Mar 20, 2007 at 11:54:52 AM EST

OK, you're not hezbi.

I am only saying your opinions and advocations appear to reflect those traditionalists who yearn to go backwards in time to Islam's supposed hay day.

Move forward, not back.

Cuz there is no going back.

 That's all.



[ Parent ]
Whats Love Got To Do With It?(none / 0) (#57)
by jinnzaman on Tue Mar 20, 2007 at 12:07:46 PM EST

Aahhh, another touchy subject, the notion of 'progress.' Are we about to bust some Hegel or Marx upon here?

What makes you think "moving forward in time" is relevant when the primary example for our law lived 1400 years ago? What use will progress be when Isa (alayhi sallam) returns? 

Define "progress."



[ Parent ]
Define Progress?(none / 0) (#61)
by dmz on Tue Mar 20, 2007 at 12:18:38 PM EST

Progress: Evolution.

The antithesis of stasis.

Stasis is the ideal for the soul. Not the body - not the mind.

The body refuses stasis as Shaitan refused Adam.

The body lives in community.

The community exists not in a vacuum but in diversity.

Diverse communities will not forgive a community that refuses to evolve, they will manipulate and subjagate it.

This is a Law of Nature. And Allah made us subject to these Laws as well as the ones the scholars (forge) uh, I mean enlighten us with.



[ Parent ]






No Straw Man Args please(none / 0) (#55)
by dmz on Tue Mar 20, 2007 at 12:02:16 PM EST
With regards to your claim that Islamic law is stuck in the middle ages

Where have I said this. Please don't repackage my words in an easily diposable container.

I never said this.

What I was suggesting is that a person who advocates the return of the Caliph is stuck in a middle ages time warp.

And needs to climb out.

Islam is fine. It is the ummah and the ulema that worry me.



[ Parent ]
hmmm(none / 0) (#59)
by jinnzaman on Tue Mar 20, 2007 at 12:15:44 PM EST

You wrote: "So we read the 7th to 11th century texts, try to figure out what the scholars were saying, aggressive jihad, use of middle ages remedies for health problems instead of western medicine, soap optional bathing with lots of musky oils....etc."

Firstly, you implied that the Khalifah, as a political institution, was obsolete in the modern era. My point was that the khalifah is not about obsoleteness or practicality, but about recognizing obligations. In spite of the seemingly infinite permutations of social and political commands, the fuqaha have never stated that the obligation of establishing the Khalifah is itself "obsolete" or no longer an "obligation." There is a distinction between saying "the fulfillment of an obligation isn't tenable" and denying whether an obligation exists at all, the fuqaha have stated the former, not the latter.

Secondly, even though you stated that you didn't explicitly state that Islamic law wasn't medieval, based on your other posts, I would take this claim on bad faith. You've platonized Islamic law from its textual context. You've drawn arbitrary distinctions between various facets of Islamic law (saying the Khalifah is obsolete) but saying other things are okay (such as salatul janazah, which are both fardh kaffayahs). If you believe that Islamic law is universal, then I ask you very bluntly whether you accept that theft is a crime that warrants a punishment prescribed by the Shari'ah and implemented by the community of believers from the moment the command was revealed until the era of colonialism. If you reject the hudood as being a part of Islamic law, then whats your definition of Islamic law and most importantly, is it a coherent definition which is in accordance with the commands of the sources of legislation itself?

 



[ Parent ]
Caliph is dead(none / 0) (#63)
by dmz on Tue Mar 20, 2007 at 12:25:15 PM EST

Firstly, you implied that the Khalifah, as a political institution, was obsolete in the modern era.

I am not implying, I am asserting as a statement of fact.

Those days are gone. Your position is precisely the regressive one I am attacking as obsolete.

Islam cannot survive in a dead body.

The body of the Caliph is as dead as Fanny's fried halal chicken.



[ Parent ]


You're studying law, doesn't it evolve?(none / 0) (#65)
by dmz on Tue Mar 20, 2007 at 03:30:31 PM EST

I ask you very bluntly whether you accept that theft is a crime that warrants a punishment prescribed by the Shari'ah and implemented by the community of believers from the moment the command was revealed until the era of colonialism

I believe that capital punishment, crucifixion and the severing of limbs is as outmoded as slavery, subjugation of women, etc. in all but the most serious of crimes.

I believe the Qur'an was revealed, in levels, at a time and place in history, to address to the condition of people's daily lives and their souls.

The conditions of life change. Reinterpreting the Qur'an will be required to adapt to daily life. God gave to the Holy Prophet what was appropriate at the time.

Addressing the condition of the soul is a timeless enterprise in which no reinterpretation of Qur'an is required. 

The problem for most scholars and clerics is they study their aqeedah and fiqh, but their TaSaWuF is weak. Their understanding and appreciation of Tauhid is speculative, not experiential. They see divisions where Allah calls one to witness Unity.

Bottom-> up instead of Top-> down interpretation of Qur'an and Sunna means people are poking about at things they scarcely understand.

The Laws are recited but the origin, cause and application are only imitated without being fully understood.

Other institutions, more recent ones, have replaced the need for slavery, capital punishment, etc. If the Prophet Mohammad was alive today, I suspect the Qur'an would be revealed differently. And 200 years from now, and so forth.

For those ayah which address mundane issues, the revelation must be different to accomodate, genetic engineering, artificial insemination, so on..... 

Coincidentally, this very subject is being dealt with by a very Islamophobic site called "American Thinker." Archaic thinking on the part of Muslims makes Islamophobia a rich and multifaceted passtime. I hate to read these articles and guess what people must think.

 



[ Parent ]










I think the reason is very simple. (none / 0) (#48)
by jinnzaman on Tue Mar 20, 2007 at 11:29:29 AM EST

Firstly, I would say its an exaggeration that the majority of Muslims agree with your conception of governance and society. If one were to compare democratic trends as opposed to the trend of Islamization, I would argue that Islamization is becoming the dominant trend and the only thing that is mitigating its dominancy is interference by foreign powers or political actors whose finances, weapons, and training stem from foreign powers. Casess in point: Nigeria, Somalia, Sudan, Egypt (look at the last elections), Algeria (look at their civil war), Palestine, Turkey (look at the dominant power), Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan. So when you say "Muslims disagree with you", which Muslims? American Muslims? The masses? The dictators? The extreme secularists who refuse to let women wear hijab? The  bourgeious intellectuals who don the cloak of "liberation" against the Islamic legal system, but hardly recognize the threat of flagrant neo-colonialism and economic dependency? Pray tell, which Muslims are you referring to? We can site polls arguing both ways, ultimately actions speak louder than words. Imagine if their was no Western involvement in Muslim countries in history. I extremely doubt that a movement that you claim to be the dominant trend amongst Muslims would have prevailed. 

Secondly, perhaps the reason why the majority of Muslims may hold such beliefs is because they know very little of the Islamic sciences. After all, most of the professionals in the Muslim world were educated in Western or Western-influenced institutions, so its not unexpected that they would operate within its intellectual framework. If Muslims adopt Western values on justice, equality, freedom, it is because they've uncritically absorbed such values without questioning the origins of such values (reason, autonomy, progress) and, more importantly, how they relate to Islamic beliefs and law.

I went into quite some detail as to account for why Muslim professionals often are influenced by Western intellectual traditions whether its liberalism, socialism, communism, fascism, etc in my post on the "The "Death" of Progressive Islam"

Colonialism placed a concerted attack on the 'Ulema as an intellectual class by depriving them of authority in the political sphere (which was further eroded by the rise of the nation-state through the process of centralization of state power) and were also undermined in the social sphere due to the rise of public education and mass literacy. The latter lead to the formation of an entirely new intellectual class that were educated in Western traditions.

What is significant about the rise of the professionals that came out of the vocational systems was that it was largely a by-product of the hegemonic relationship between Western colonizers and the Muslim colonized. Thomas Macaulay, the British colonialist, said it best when he said that the goal of the British in India to was create "a class of persons, Indian in blood and colour, but English in taste."  

According to Hannah Arendt, the two key characteristics of colonialism are racism and bureacracy. The professional elites were clearly created to support the colonial bureacracy, and is also not surprising that they adopted, in essence, the same disdain for their fellow Muslims (especially the 'Ulema) that the Colonizers had for the Colonized. The professional elites often adopted the same purported "reformism" that was used to justify imperialism in the first place. Just like the "White man" had reached the pinnacle of human evolution and it was his duty to uplift the lesser races from their anthropological shortcomings, so did the professional elites view themselves as the pinnacle of Islamic history and had achieved material success and, thus, it was their duty to uplift the Muslim masses from their decadence. This cannot be manifested more clearly than in the discourse on Islam itself as being a problem not between complex interrelated social, political, and economic forces, but a Manichean struggle between "faith" and "reason"; such concepts that were directly borrowed by Orientalists. Either ignorant of or deliberately ignoring the vehement theological debates over the role of reason of Islam, what the modernists argued was that classical Islam was incompatible with "Reason" with a capital "R". By "Reason", they were referring to the Eurocentric understanding of reason that was imported by the Colonizers. The fact that the Islamic theology was strongly influenced by Aristotelan philosophy and ultimately seeped into jurisprudence through the development of Mantiq by Imam Ghazzali was ignored by the Modernists. For them, it was inconceivable that the classical Islamic traditions could be considered rational, even though for all purposes, they were entirely rational, on par with Western traditions. Their presumption that their was an instrinsic inequality between Islamic and Western traditions reinforced the larger hegemonic discourse that interplayed between Western Colonizers and the Muslim Colonized.

Whether they realized it or not, this class was a competitor to the 'Ulema and, unsurprisingly, often lead to conflict with them. Some of the 'Ulema recognized this and responded by creating learning institutions in order to preserve their traditions, which they deemed were under attack. For example, in India, we see the rise of the Deobandis who inferred that the inevitable effect of this class would be ultimately to support the expansion of British imperialism.

From the perspective of the 'Ulema, the crticisms that Modernists had of classical Islamic jurisprudence was not concerned with a reformulation of the methods of extracting legal rulings (i.e. an usool) for the sincere objective of creating an equitable legal system, but was more focused specifically on particular legal conclusions that were deemed incompatible with modern times. It was not out of coincidence that the legal conclusions that Modernists adopted were the same legal conclusions that were being advanced by the Colonizers. The 'Ulema saw the former as nothing but the puppets of the latter. Thus, the hijab came under attack, not because the Modernists were concerned with a critique of the legal reasoning behind hijab, but because it was deemed to be bulwark to progress by Feminists. In other words, what Modernists failed to see was that their treatment of classical Islam as "the object" failed to take into consideration that the Modernists were "objects" within the Universal Subject as well. Instead of asking whether Hijab was truly an obligation or not that resulted in inequality between the genders, the 'Ulema often wondered why such a question arose in the first place and saw a causal connection between these questions that assumed particular answers that were not coincidentally also being advanced by the Colonizers. Thus, such discourse itself was hegemonic in nature. Modernists failed to apply equal criticisms between Islamic and Western traditions, thus delegitimizing their claim to being concerned with objective truth. In their push for "progress", they failed to properly analyze what progress was or why it was important or how one defined progress or whether progress even existed within human history. For example, in the West, the true cause of female liberation was not because a class of philosopher-kings congregated and concluded that men and women were equal or ought to be equal and then passed legislation to accommodate such philosophical conclusions, but because their was a shortage of male labor that was caused by World War I and World War II. The Modernists often used anthropology as a source of criticism for classical opinions such as by arguing that Islamic jurisprudence treated men and women differently because of the infiltration of patriarchy due to the overwhelming dominance of male scholarship. However, they failed to recognized that such legal conclusions arose from a positive interpretation of Islamic texts (such as direct commands from Allah (subhana wa ta'ala) and, more importantly, didn't apply such a high level of criticism against the values that they presumed to be true. Thus, instead of scrutinizing the history of democracy and the fact that only 5% of Americans supported the Constitution or supporting feminism without examining its relationship with capitalism, Modernists applied criticisms in an unequal manner and focused more on reforming Islam rather than objective issues of social justice. The clear imbalance in focus lead many scholars to conclude that the Modernist discourse had its direct origins and sustenance through Western hegemony.
   

 



[ Parent ]
hegemony(none / 0) (#64)
by Lawrence of Arabia on Tue Mar 20, 2007 at 01:08:21 PM EST

i wrote my post quickly on the way out the door and paid the price.  you basically answered the question, but it wasn't exactly the question i intended to ask.

first of all though, when i said people of faith, i didn't not only mean muslims.  i was, at the very least, including myself.

second, the question i was really meaning to ask was something along the lines of the following...

this discussion has been ongoing here on eteraz.org for a couple weeks now and i think it has become pretty clear that the people you are arguing with are not anti-muslim or enemies of religion, they are people of faith.  now, granted that most of us, including yourself, are living in liberal republics and capitalist economies, why does the alternative vision of society that you are offering not appeal to most of us and in fact frighten quite a few of us?  (so yes, i am primarily thinking about people living in liberal societies already).

i fear that hegemony is the only answer you really have and thus at the end of the day the only alternative you have to offer is the imposition of another hegemonic structure: you see nothing at work here other than power, implying that we are just a bunch of disobedient wretches failing to submit to the appropriate power.  is there not something more than hegemony at work?

i am perfectly willing to have the question turned back on liberalism.  there are clearly places it has not taken hold and where its appeal is not apparent to large segments of those societies.  i do believe this points to the limits of liberalism.  but i do not think those limits are merely limits of its power.

LoA.


Lawrence of Arabia
[ Parent ]
Is it really hegemony?(none / 0) (#69)
by jinnzaman on Tue Mar 20, 2007 at 11:33:02 PM EST

I don't think its hegemonic. My concern for the restoration of the Khalifah and Islamic law has to do with fulfilling obligations to Allah (subhana wa ta'ala), not for the sake of power.

If you think its hegemonic for religion to have political aspects, then its because you've assumed that secularism is a valid political system. As a Muslim who adheres to the classical legal tradition, I don't accept the englightment foundations of society. Does that make me support hegemony? I don't necessarily think so. I'm not asking non-Muslims to become Muslims nor am I imposing my world view upon them.

Again, I asked a simple question: why do Westerners feel so threatened by the presence of an Islamic government somewhere in the world?

If a Khalifah is established in Somalia or Afghanistan or Iraq, it lifts the obligation from the rest of the Ummah. It doesn't have to include every single Muslim polity or Muslim. It should, but its not mandatory.

I think that there should be a place in the world where Muslims should be able to practice their faith completely and totally in accordance with the Shari'ah. This includes spiritually, morally, legally, politically, economically, and militarily.  I don't see that as hegemonic. I think such a society can still exist within the contemporary international nation-state system. All thats changing is the boundaries of the nation-state, not the concept itself.

If people feel "threatened" by such a view, its because their interests will be undermined. Some people argue that the reason why countries like Pakistan were founded was not because of a truly sincere appeal to nationalism, but because Muslim elites were threatened with a loss of their status in society. Perhaps the reason why the professional class today doesn't like the concept of an Islamic state is because their role in society will be reduced merely to a working class, their ideals and world-view will be reduced as well, the very identity which they have formed will be nullified. 

However, I don't believe that the cultural schizophrenia which exists in Muslim societies can exist any longer. All Muslim societies are moving towards greater Islamization, not Westernization in ther political systems. Its a matter of time before this process is complete. My goal is to serve as a catalyst to expedite already existing trends.

That doesn't make me a terrorist, especially since I renounce violence to complete these goals.  



[ Parent ]
still sounds like hegemony(none / 0) (#72)
by Lawrence of Arabia on Wed Mar 21, 2007 at 11:11:19 AM EST


ok, this time i feel like you did dodge the question. 

what i am interested in is how do you interpret and handle dissent, especially from people who are relatively sympathetic to the position of islam.  and what we get in reply is basically:  "If people feel "threatened" by such a view, its because their interests will be undermined."  this turns dissent into a concern to hold power and thus an act of violence against the state.  moreover, since the state you are advocating is supposedly mandatory according to islam, it becomes act of agression against islam as well.  this is a tendency that i already was worried about in your account of legal positivism (the complete removal of any grounds for dissent from the law).

and it is a westerners political nightmare.


LoA.

Lawrence of Arabia
[ Parent ]












sarah, u understand(none / 0) (#47)
by Ali Eteraz on Tue Mar 20, 2007 at 11:28:57 AM EST

u are worthy.

To engage in a debate with you involves a kind collusion with you- to argue with someone means you agree there's something worth arguing about- you ironically reinforce the value of their position.

thank you for putting it so impersonally and straightforwardly. i'm just going to start quoting this from now on.



[ Parent ]












two versions of reason(none / 0) (#14)
by Daniel Haar on Mon Mar 19, 2007 at 02:47:42 PM EST

"The vision of reason as a treasure trove of truths is not conducive to thinking about the origin and manner of arriving at the truths...Reason as a storehouse entails a notion of enforced truth; the dynamic view of reason would prefer the methodically acquired error for it contains the kind of flow that is the only guarantor of the life and longevity of reason"  - Abdolkarim Soroush, "Reason and Freedom"


Jinnzaman,

My approach to reason is in accord with that of Soroush, i.e. reason is essentially a process by which we arrive at the truth, and reason invites us to constantly update our past understandings of the world in light of new findings (including our religious perspectives.)  In your blog post "On Apostacy", you espoused a version of the "vision of reason as a treasure trove of truths" that Soroush decries:

"From a Kantian perspective, we could argue that belief in God, as Imam Juwayni argued, was an inherently rational conclusion and to deny Allah or the deen after having found the truth, was comlpetely irrational.  When rational agents commit irrational acts, they are liable for punishment."

I don't think you can claim a conclusion is reasonable and then forbid the opposite conclusion.  For a conclusion to be a product of reason, one must be ambivalent about the conclusion before putting a hypothesis to reason's test.  How can you be ambivalent with the shadow of a sharp sword darkening your neck? Now, it may be reasonable to believe in God.  Aristotle, Ghazali, Aquinas, and Anselm all believed they had definitively proved God's existence.  Yet many others have pointed out holes in these proofs, notably Hume.  How?  Well, for starters, even though we all accept completely the validity of syllogistic argumentation, no one can prove one's premises without recourse to another proof.  At some point we must just accept certain premises that are likely true but not necessarily provably so.  You damage the cause of truth by trying to enforce one viewpoint over another -- such tactics of the state only scare people away from using their God-given minds.

You go on to say: 

"If you think about the death penalty in Islam, it is actually better than it is in the West because in Islam, the death is virtually instantaneous."

Are you kidding me?  Don't you know that beheadings by the sword are often ineffective on first try?  So, you'll have to change that to "virtually instantaneous after a couple of f-ing painful whacks by a sword."  And then of course there's stoning...



[ Parent ]
Daniel(none / 0) (#16)
by jinnzaman on Mon Mar 19, 2007 at 03:03:24 PM EST

I'm not sure what the purpose of your post was. Merely citing to Souroush is not a 'proof' in and of itself. If Souroush defines reason in a particular way, thats fine and dandy, but its not mandatory for me to accept your definition, nor for Muslim theologians to revise their definition of 'reason.' If you want to show me how Sourush's definition of 'reason' should be adopted, you have to show how its in conformity with the totality of interpretation of Islamic texts. The problem with your method is that its an a priori assumption, whereas the method of the Mutakallimun is an a posteriori definition.

So please, substantiate your argument why (1) Souroush is relevant and (2) why Muslim theologians should adopt his definition of reason.

My point was that whether one adopts a Kantian view of criminal theory or a utilitarian view of criminal theory, they cannot be used to discredit the Islamic jurisprudential basis for its own criminal theory.

With regards to corporal punishment, the underlying purpose is quick and swift physical punishment which, in some ways, can be arguably superior to non-corporal psychological punishments. In prison, for example, male rape has reached epic proportions. Would a person rather get a hand chopped off or raped in prison? I dunno, I'd rather get my had chopped off.  What about you?

 



[ Parent ]
jinnzaman(none / 0) (#17)
by Daniel Haar on Mon Mar 19, 2007 at 03:18:16 PM EST

You said that "Merely citing to Souroush is not a 'proof' in and of itself."  True, I cited Soroush's definition, but then I laid out my own argument in favor of that definition in the paragraph starting with the sentence "I don't think you can claim a conclusion is reasonable and then forbid the opposite conclusion."  Read that paragraph again, and you will see a line of reasoning.

You also say: "If you want to show me how Sourush's definition of 'reason' should be adopted, you have to show how its in conformity with the totality of interpretation of Islamic texts."  That is not true.  In an earlier post (here: http://www.eteraz.org/comments/2007/3/15/91721/8475/22#22) I explained Ghazali's theory, which he explained in "The Criterion of Distinction between Islam and Clandestine Unbelief" (a text you cited in your blog post) that reason itself directs how Muslim source texts must be interpreted.  According to al-Ghazali, if something is proven in terms of reason and it contradicts the literal sense of a scriptural passage (Qur'an or Hadith), then the passage cannot be interpreted literally.  He showed that everyone from Ahmad ibn Hanbal to the Mutazilah engages in such interpretation.  The only way to undertake such a process is to allow reason to operate independently of textual analysis, and then compare the product of reasoning to already existing interpretations of texts.  If the two contradict, then the interpretation of the text must be revised.



[ Parent ]


argument not convincing(none / 0) (#18)
by Nedal Hindi on Mon Mar 19, 2007 at 03:33:56 PM EST
Regardless, the Qur'an is unequivocal about freedom of conscience. By your logic Jinnzaman, it would also make sense to punish people who have never accepted Truth. But that has never been a part of Islam. The after-life is precisely the point why the main aim of law on earth is to maintain order and fairness in society for all (muslim or non-muslim), rather than punish all wrongs. It seems that on this point the traditionalists are giving more weight to the earthly interpretations individual, human jurists of old rather than the clear source of our guidance, i.e., words and spirit of al-Qur'an.

[ Parent ]
Unequivocal? (none / 0) (#20)
by jinnzaman on Mon Mar 19, 2007 at 03:46:45 PM EST

Its very easy to say "I'm going to ignore the plain meaning of the Qur'an and the contextual framework established by the Sunnah" and go to "the spirit of the Qur'an" but the Qur'an never sanctions such a practice but rather, condemns it. Their is a reason why the Shahadah is not "There is no God but Allah, and the Qur'an is His Book" and instead states "and Muhammad is His Messenger." True faith in Allah is defined by obedience to the Prophet (sallahu alahu alayhi wa sallam). The punishment of apostasy is unequivocally established in the Sunnah of the Prophet (sallahu alayhi wa sallam) and the Khalifah Rashidun (radhi allahu anhum). Remember, the four khalifah rashidun were also part of the Asharah Mubasharah according to the Prophet (sallahu alahu alayhi wa sallam).

 



[ Parent ]
You must choose(none / 0) (#42)
by Daniel Haar on Tue Mar 20, 2007 at 10:30:44 AM EST
I think I've caught a serious contradiction in your stated views.  You argue that punishments are more humane in Islam:  "If you think about the death penalty in Islam, it is actually better than it is in the West because in Islam, the death is virtually instantaneous." Then you go slighly off topic with this explanation (shifting from capital to corporal punishment): "With regards to corporal punishment, the underlying purpose is quick and swift physical punishment which, in some ways, can be arguably superior to non-corporal psychological punishments."  But we get your point -- Islamic punishments are more humane because they are swifter and cause less pain.  Humaneness in capital punishment is an intention (maqasid) of the law.  However, you later state that "Its very easy to say "I'm going to ignore the plain meaning of the Qur'an and the contextual framework established by the Sunnah" and go to "the spirit of the Qur'an" but the Qur'an never sanctions such a practice but rather, condemns it."  But there is no way to adhere to both the letter and spirit of the law regarding punishments if technology is advancing.  If a swifter, more painless technique of execution is discovered, should an "Islamic" state adopt a new technique, or adhere to the 7th century methods espoused in the letter of the Quranic and Sunnaic texts?  If the former, the state has adhered to the spirit (i.e. maqasid) of the law, while if the latter, it has adhered to the letter.  Which do you choose?

[ Parent ]
to all you discussion loving lamers(none / 0) (#43)
by Ali Eteraz on Tue Mar 20, 2007 at 10:49:56 AM EST

can i give you guys an assignment? cuz reading your stuff, i can see that you're not really doing much. my post was about how the debate can be "jammed." you guys took the jam, and jumped right in. sometimes smart people are their own worst enemy.

its getting kind of frustrating seeing all these discussions and no actions, leaving all of that to me. i thought we were all in this shit together but it appears that im surrounded by a bunch of laputan losers floating above the world while i their little minion does all their research. screw that.

if someone wants to get off their metaphysical asses and do something positive, here are some things i need:

egypt, iran, turkey, pakistan, bangladesh, jordan, indonesia, malaysia

websites (preferrably in english) of all the opposition groups to the government (major ones only) if no websites are available then at least the names of such groups

if possible names of opposition intellectuals as wel

...ae casts an effing message in a bottle to the sea...



[ Parent ]
chill pill dude(none / 0) (#45)
by Maleeha on Tue Mar 20, 2007 at 10:58:40 AM EST

(yes i know "chill pill" is early 90s, sue me.)

there's ish in the works behind the scenes. not all of us are sitting on our hands.



[ Parent ]


you started it(none / 0) (#46)
by Daniel Haar on Tue Mar 20, 2007 at 11:20:17 AM EST

'cause it was a "bullet point attack", i.e. an attack using ideas.  Only way to defend from the counter attack is with ideas too.  But I get your drift.

Problem is, only Muslim(ish) country I have real connections to is Lebanon, and there I think the gov't is a whole lot better than the opposition.  Okay I know a tiny bit about Jordan and have some in-laws there too, but again, it's king is better than many of the leaders in the Middle East.  Of course he's still a king... Queen Rania of Jordan, in fact, has been very vocal in support of women's rights issues.  See here: http://www.queenrania.jo/content/sectionPage.aspx?secID=womn



[ Parent ]


A black sesame chill pill w/frankincense(none / 0) (#49)
by dmz on Tue Mar 20, 2007 at 11:29:47 AM EST

Maybe we can delve one yard below your action item mine and uncover the main vein, mother lode of Muslim advancement.

Most Muslim organizations seem to be addressing the same issue: Muslim fear or approach towards modernity.

How should Muslims move quickly, aggressively towards the 21st century and not fear losing their Religion along the way? How do we assure them that Islam and modernity can coexist without the least conflict between them?



[ Parent ]
what? dark side joiner!(none / 0) (#50)
by Ali Eteraz on Tue Mar 20, 2007 at 11:37:40 AM EST

what?? you too? what are these words you are using.

"muslim advancement"

"modernity"

"coexist."

:slaps self facially and diagonally:

 



[ Parent ]
Am I a kaffir again?(none / 0) (#51)
by dmz on Tue Mar 20, 2007 at 11:44:06 AM EST

Damn it! I just can't keep up.

I am going to chew a branch up and brush my teeth.



[ Parent ]


Additionally: Some nasiha brother(none / 0) (#52)
by dmz on Tue Mar 20, 2007 at 11:49:44 AM EST

":slaps self facially and diagonally"  - Ali Eteraz

Dear Brother

I need to advise you against self-flatulation. The ulema have strictly forbidden this!

There is no mortification in Islam.



[ Parent ]






Is this in reference to your MLP2?(none / 0) (#62)
by Samaha on Tue Mar 20, 2007 at 12:19:32 PM EST

If so why websites of opposition groups?  Wouldn't you want to start with folks in the legislation process?  Even possible Newspapers that may devote people to covering legislation?  Anyway...

Here are a few links that I had bookmarked from my own project while trying to track down a certain scholar - hope that may are helpful - you should go through both sites and see what you can find:

Pakistan Ministry of Law, Justice and Human Rights

Pakistan Senate Listing

Pakistan Gov. (unfortunately the list of lawyers is under construction)

Various ME Online Newspapers and Links



[ Parent ]










keep poor kant out of it...(none / 0) (#22)
by Lawrence of Arabia on Mon Mar 19, 2007 at 04:04:45 PM EST
i will just throw in, on top of all your other troubles, that you have pretty grossly misrepresented kant on both belief in god and on the role of law.

LoA.
Lawrence of Arabia
[ Parent ]
LoA(none / 0) (#23)
by jinnzaman on Mon Mar 19, 2007 at 04:16:18 PM EST

By all means, if I've stated anything inaccurate about Kant's views on ethics or law, please correct me.

 



[ Parent ]
kant 2(none / 0) (#29)
by Lawrence of Arabia on Mon Mar 19, 2007 at 04:48:19 PM EST

on belief in god:  if daniel has quoted you correctly, you said:

"From a Kantian perspective, we could argue that belief in God, as Imam Juwayni argued, was an inherently rational conclusion and to deny Allah or the deen after having found the truth, was comlpetely irrational.  When rational agents commit irrational acts, they are liable for punishment."

given that you call unbelief irrational, i suspect you have misunderstood kant on 'rational belief'.  kant tries to occupy a middle position between the rationalists and what he calls the enthusiasts (pietists of various forms).  the rationalists believed that you could prove the existence of god and to deny god's existence was irrational.  the enthusiasts on the other hand, of which you would be one in kant's mind, argued that faith was a relative choice and equally valid compared to faith in reason.  neither could be proven; one was equally justified in choosing one or the other (of course their point was that faith in reason was oxymoronic).  kant argued instead that while one could not know there was a god, and thus that belief was entirely a matter of faith, one's faith was, to an extent, rational, since the human will had a need to believe.  one does not know, but one hopes, that there is a god.

now belief in god, according to kant, is completely a matter of the will and has to do with the fundamental formation of the maxims of the will.  the law has no power over the will and deals completely in the realm of actions.  one can in fact be a person of faith and deny god with their mouth (intentionally and meaningfully), while it is likewise possible to confess god with one's lips, engage in completely lawful actions and have no faith whatsoever to be non-believer.  this leads to kant's famous line about it being possible for a good state to be made up entirely of devils.

it is not the purpose of the law to make good people, in kant.  it is about making them act correctly (right action(Recht), not good or true action).  belief in god on the other hand, which is attached to the moral law, and thus the will, has to do with the good.




just remember you complaint that kant is a liberal: belief is a purely interior matter and lies beyond the reach of the state.  the state is unable to know the heart of any person.

LoA. 


Lawrence of Arabia
[ Parent ]
Misunderstanding. (none / 0) (#31)
by jinnzaman on Mon Mar 19, 2007 at 05:40:53 PM EST

I don't know if it was the way I phrased it, but I think you might've misconstrued what I was saying.

Again, here is what I said: ""From a Kantian perspective, we could argue that belief in God, as Imam Juwayni argued, was an inherently rational conclusion and to deny Allah or the deen after having found the truth, was comlpetely irrational.  When rational agents commit irrational acts, they are liable for punishment."

I was not saying that Kant believed that belief in God was rational, but that rational agents should be punished for their irrational actions.  When I said that belief in God was rational, I was using Imam Juwayni's definition of "reason" which he stated was to discern truth from falsehood. According to Imam Juwayni, the truth was that which established the ultimate reality of beings and there was nothing more real than the existence of God, similar to the concept of wahdat al wujood developed by Ibn Arabi.

So what I was saying was not that Kant himself believed that the existence of God was rational, but rather, since he believed that rational agents should be punished for their irrational actions, then Muslims should be able to argue that since disbelief in God is irrational (based on the concept of wahdat al wujood), then perhaps disbelief could be punished. 

 



[ Parent ]
re: misunderstanding(none / 0) (#33)
by Lawrence of Arabia on Mon Mar 19, 2007 at 06:52:21 PM EST

i realize that this is tangential to your overall purpose, but im going to post it anyway (otherwise i would have to do the writing i ought to be doing)...

kant says that while the person who follows the law ought to be moral, that it is not necessary that the two overlap (hence the imagineability for kant of a good state made up of devils).  law deals with right action (not rational action).  incorrect action, unlawful action, is action that violates the idea of the state as such: pre-emptive strikes, one state charging the ruler of another state for crimes the committed in their own state, secret methods of surveillence, failing to provide for the physical well-being of the citizenry, etc.  so in kant, in order for you to make apostacy illegal at all, you would have to show that it violated the idea of the state as such (not the idea of a particular state (say the united states), but the very idea of statehood (the possibility of there being states at all)).  but since apostacy is a matter of the will, this would be impossible.

which is all to say it is inconceiveable to me to find a kantian arguing for such a thing,

now, a kantian would be perfectly justified, on the other hand, for prosecuting amish folk for not paying their taxes (even though they do it for religious reasons), because if you allow persons to not pay taxes the state would dissolve.  several rawlsians have in fact argued that the only reason we tolerate it is because it would cause more political instability to deal with them than is caused by ignoring them.  if on the otherhand they became a larger percentage of the population....

LoA.


Lawrence of Arabia
[ Parent ]
Interesting(none / 0) (#34)
by jinnzaman on Mon Mar 19, 2007 at 11:36:17 PM EST

Wow, that was an interesting post. I've never seen anyone utilize Kant to describe how states should act.

I was focusing more on the first formulation of the categorical imperative and assumed Islamic beliefs to be true. In other words, if all rational agents willfully chose to apostate (and we assumed that the punishment in hellfire was a result of this choice), then all rational agents would be in hellfire. Therefore, the Islamic state should not allow people to apostate. 



[ Parent ]
















my comment(none / 0) (#15)
by Maleeha on Mon Mar 19, 2007 at 02:57:29 PM EST

Jinnzaman, I posted this on your blog, but I would appreciate a reply here since I visit this site more frequently and would be more likely to see your response.

You said..."The punishment in the akhirah is not temporal but eternal and is far more intense and painful than the punishment and suffering of this world. Hence, it is inherently within the interest of both the state and the individual to take the necessary means to prohibit apostasy as a criminal act."

I am not seeing the logical connection between these statements. Why does the severity of the punishment for apostacy in the hereafter necessitate that human beings make it a criminal act in this world? What "crime" has been committed? One could argue that apostacy could equal treason if there is a (truly) Islamic state, but even then it should only be punished as such if its causing revolt against the government. In today's day and age, if some Muslim in his home decides he no longer believes in God, justice hardly demands that he be put to death for it. Even if he is exhorting others towards his view, none can be taken from God's path unless He wills it.

Also, it seems silly to say that in Islam we kill you more softly than in the West, thus the death penalty for apostacy is not "cruel and unusual punishment." Whats at issue is the punishment of death itself, not the method in which its carried out. And beheading  (if that is indeed what you mean by an "Islamic" method of capital punishment) is hardly a means to kill softly.



[ Parent ]
Maleeha(none / 0) (#19)
by jinnzaman on Mon Mar 19, 2007 at 03:38:14 PM EST

I'll just post my response here, since I too, don't read my blog anymore (I've become an Eta-addict.)

You wrote:

I am not seeing the logical connection between these statements. Why does the severity of the punishment for apostacy in the hereafter necessitate that human beings make it a criminal act in this world? What "crime" has been committed?

You asked "what crimehas been committed" but it seems that you implied "what harm has been committed?" My point was that crimes are defined by the Shari'ah, whether they benefit a human being or harm them. The question that needs to be asked is "how are crimes established in Islamic law?" Just because something is sinful doesn't necessary mean that its criminal and just because something is criminal doesn't necessary make it sinful. For example, fornication has been described as a major sin as well as a criminal act in Islam. However, backbiting has been described in hadeeth as being "worse than fornication". Of course, the former is considered a crime with a specific punishment whereas the latter is considered a major sin, but not a crime and no punishment is prescribed by the Shari'ah. Another example, pointed out by Shah Waliullah in his Hujjat Allah al-Baligha, is that consumption of wine is not only sinful, but a criminal act, whereas the consumption of urine is only sinful, but not a criminal act.

There are also crimes that have no sin. For example, under Islamic law, there is no obedience to a ruler whose commands or prohibitions transgresses the Shari'ah. To defy the government is clearly a "criminal" act according to that state, but there is no sin incurred for doing so. 

Thus, there are instances where actions may be sinful, but not criminal and there are instances where actions may be criminal but not sinful. 

What makes actions criminal are not because they are sinful, but because their is a command that has been explicitly or implicitly deduced from Islamic texts. As was pointed out, commands can be deduced either from (1) the Qur'an, (2) the Sunnah, or (not AND) (3) ijma.  

So that is why it is important to ask: what is a crime according to the Shari'ah and what is the punishment and what are the procedural checks imposed for the preservation of justice.

Criminal law in Islam simply is not utilitarian. It is not about harms/benefits, although you can have a posteriori rationalizations of commands and prohibitions. However, even if one were to adopt a utilitarian approach, the definition of harms and benefits exceeds the material harms and benefits of this life and include the harms and benefits of the akhirah. The prohibition on pork, for example, has no material benefit or harm for a human being. We can argue that pork is unhealthy, that its a dirty animal, that it spreads diseases, etc. However, the same can be said about many other animals that are halal. Why is pork haram? Because Allah (subhana wa ta'ala). To ask "why is this a crime when no crime has occurred is like asking, why is pork haram when no crime has occurred?" Your definition of "crime" carried within it the implicit assumption that crimes under Islamic law exist because of harms/benefits. My point is that we need to remove this assumption in trying to understand Islamic law and understand it as it itself is understood.

However, even then, various scholars have recognized that, generally speaking, all of the ahkam of the Shari'ah can be broken down into a system of benefits. This is known as the theory of Maqasid al-Shari'ah which is an a posteriori rationalization of commands and prohibitions. Imam Ghazzali argued that their were five basic purposes of the Shari'ah: the preservation of (1) faith, (2) property, (3) intellect, (4) family, and (5) life. My point was that the punishment of apostasy fits within the first category, the preservation of faith of not only the individual, but of other members of society. Rejecting the message of Islam (kufr, as opposed to mere non-belief) is considered one of the greatest sins in Islam. Islam defines oppression (dhulm) as not only material oppression and injustice, but the injustice which is committed against one's own self. When the state engages in an act of coercion, it must be justified by the Shari'ah. In this case, the punishment of apostasy serves the interest of preserving faith, for both the individual and society. With regards to the individual, if he is confronted about his apostasy by the state, then perhaps this will cause him to rethink his position, thus saving himself from eternal hellfire.  Thus, the purpose of punishing apostasy is to deter the apostate from apostasy as well as the public in general from apostasy. 

You also state:

"One could argue that apostacy could equal treason if there is a (truly) Islamic state, but even then it should only be punished as such if its causing revolt against the government."

Again, the reason why apostasy is a crime is not because its harmful. Thats why you've tried to analogize it because there's a revolt. Revolting against the state is not haram, it can be done under certain conditions. In fact one of the conditions for revolting against a state is if its leaders have apostated. This shows that revolt is not the reason why apostasy is prohibited, otherwise revolting against the state would be prohibited in its totality. However, the "harm" of apostasy is so great, that what is normally prohibited (revolt) becomes not only permissible, but possibly obligatory. Ultimately what makes something obligatory or prohibited are that they are deemed commands or prohibitions utilising an usool. Its not about harm and benefits, I can't stress this enough.  

You concluded:  

In today's day and age, if some Muslim in his home decides he no longer believes in God, justice hardly demands that he be put to death for it. Even if he is exhorting others towards his view, none can be taken from God's path unless He wills it.

The state doesn't go around searching into people's homes to see if they're committing crimes. However, if a person finds out you've apostated, then obviously the state can step in and run an investigation and make a determination if you've apostated by accident or you intentionally and knowingly have apostated. 

With regards to "justice", define "justice". What is the definition of "justice" in Islam. Is it just for the Prophet (sallahu alayhi wa sallam) to stone adulteresses? Lets define "justice" before saying whether laws under the Shari'ah are "just" or "unjust."

We need to become critical thinkers and strip our minds of certain presumptions when critiquing Islamic law, especially when the presumptions haven't been substantiated on either rational or textual grounds.

That is why I've constantly attempted to separate the implicit assumption of the authority of Kantian and Utilitarn ethics that seems to pervade people's minds. You cannot take a a contemporary Eurocentric system of ethics and say "we will use this method of thinking as a standard for judging Islamic law."  If you cannot substantiate these ethical systems independently of tautological or syllostic reasoning, then one can equally utilize Islamic legal reasoning to critique these ethical systems.

 



[ Parent ]
Jinnzaman(none / 0) (#24)
by Maleeha on Mon Mar 19, 2007 at 04:22:05 PM EST

Pretty soon we're going to have start forming Eta-addicts support groups :)  

Thanks for taking the time and replying in detail. I might not be able to do justice to your post since I'm in a rush.

I think its helpful to distinguish between what's sinful and what's criminal, and I agree with you that both are not one and the same. But I'm not sure I agree that criminal law in Islam is not utilitarian. Ofcourse underlying obediance to any law of God is "we hear and we obey," but we have the maqasid for a reason - so that we may judge the benefits and harms to them that come from any rule. And you argue that such benefits and harms, when considered within Islamic law, must include those in the hereafter too. Even if I agree with that, and I'm not sure I do, like Sabir said above, having capital punishment for apostacy made sense in a context that does not exist any more.

You state:  "the punishment of apostasy serves the interest of preserving faith, for both the individual and society. With regards to the individual, if he is confronted about his apostasy by the state, then perhaps this will cause him to rethink his position, thus saving himself from eternal hellfire."

Do you really think a person will be truly saving himself from Hellfire if he says he believe in God at the point of a sword, but does not truly in his heart? This does not deter apostacy but rather would make any such person more firm in his disbelief. The maqasid of preservation of faith is not upheld by the state punishing and investigating those that no longer believe in Islam. The Quran is unequivocal in saying numerous times that no sole will bear the burden of another on the Day of Judgment. The concept of individual accountability for one's actions and inaction is a pervasive theme throughout the Quran, and to present someone with the Hobson's choice of "believe or die" is totally contradictory to that.

If the Prophet (saw) and the Khulafa Rashidoun engaged in this practice (and I would want to see how often and in what context this was done), it was because the very existence of Islam was threatened by people apostacizing (if thats a word). We are no longer in that world, and to simply apply law wholecloth as it existed so long ago in today's world is akin to trying to force a square peg in a round hole. It doesnt fit.

Thats why I think ultimately arguing about this issue on a theoretical basis is futile (and its actually my fault for starting it in the first place). Energy must be focused on what can be done to prevent corrupt Muslim governments from selectively persecuting and silencing critics by labelling them "apostates" or prosecuting them under poorly written blasphemy laws. Reform in the Muslim world demands it.



[ Parent ]
khulafah rashidun(none / 0) (#25)
by Ali Eteraz on Mon Mar 19, 2007 at 04:26:01 PM EST

jm's argument that we infer some kind of sunnah practice from the khulafa killing apostates is a load.

b/c its obvious that back then being muslim was what granted citizenship in the state.

i think he's referring to when abu bakr persecuted the non zakat paying individuals.

besides, there is the other little problem jm runs into over and over. he wants us to follow the sunnah of the khulafah but only when it suits his purpose. now we're supposed to kill apostates but overlook the fact that the khulafa only did it in a properly constituted islamic state. come on jm.



[ Parent ]


quick question:(none / 0) (#26)
by jinnzaman on Mon Mar 19, 2007 at 04:26:20 PM EST

I'm in the middle of writing my paper, but I can't stoppp eterazingggggggg. Dammit, this site is too addictive.

 

Real quick question: If God can punish apostasy in the next life, why can't he punish it in this life through human agents?

 

 



[ Parent ]
my guess(none / 0) (#27)
by Maleeha on Mon Mar 19, 2007 at 04:32:35 PM EST

and its only a guess, is that apostacy is a crime against God, not against man. thats why i said it may be punishable only if it amounts to treason in the form of open revolt against the Islamic state, which we all know does not exist. (yes I know not all revolts equal treason, but thats not the issue here).



[ Parent ]
right, thats why.(none / 0) (#30)
by jinnzaman on Mon Mar 19, 2007 at 05:35:44 PM EST

I think thats the reason why apostasy can be punished, because its a crime against God, not the state. Just like God has considered the Hudood crimes to be crimes against God that warrant punishment by the state, so is apostasy a crime against God that He commanded through the Prophet (sallahu alayhi wa sallam) to punish by the state.

 



[ Parent ]
the fact(none / 0) (#40)
by Maleeha on Tue Mar 20, 2007 at 08:38:42 AM EST

that its a crime against God to disbelieve in Him implies that He will punish it. it does not imply believing the next step that He will punish it via humans. hudood laws are not like apostacy because the crime (and often the punishment) for them is clearly stated in the Quran. if you want to argue that punishment for apostacy is derived from the Sunnah (first, distinguish between hadith and sunnah), then even still the context and the benefit/harm to all maqasid should be taken into account before legislating the death penalty for apostacy today. and I will argue that doing so today, right now, harms nearly all of them - I would SO love to make that argument in a court of law.

agh why do i get caught up in these arguments online? i know i'm not going to convince you, and you're not going to convince me. its a waste of time and yet i cant help it.



[ Parent ]






um(none / 0) (#28)
by Ali Eteraz on Mon Mar 19, 2007 at 04:40:02 PM EST
because he didn't authorize his agents to punish it meng!!!! the authorization is not in the quran. the other times God authorizes His agents to punish people by death are in the quran. its really that simple. the only islamic legal argument for death penalty has been the kill hadith, which fails on the matn level (while the other hadith fail on the isnad level). to deduce the punishment from the fact that our leaders in political capacity engaged in it is an enormous leap which does not islamically have to be taken.

[ Parent ]
Usul al Fiqh(none / 0) (#32)
by jinnzaman on Mon Mar 19, 2007 at 05:44:43 PM EST

I think you might be misunderstanding how commands are deduced. The Qur'an is not a series of if-then statements:

If a command is not in the Qur'an, then you go to the Sunnah. If not in the Sunnah, then you go to Ijma.

Rather, its a series of "or" statements. Commands can be deduced from the Qur'an OR the Sunnah OR Ijma (however you define it). This is why a "sunnah" can "override" the "apparent" ruling of a Qur'anic verse, since they both come from the same: Allah (subhana wa ta'ala). With regards to the punishment for apostasy, IF it is the established practice (sunnah) of the Prophet (sallahu alayhi wa sallam), then it is presumed automatically to be a command unless their are other evidences which show that it conflicts, such as a direct prohibition from the Qur'an. There are verses in the Qur'an which specifically state that the opinion of the Prophet (sallahu alayhi wa sallam) conflicted with the will of God. The same is said with ijma.

Whats your source of understanding when it comes to usul al fiqh? Which texts are you referring to?

 



[ Parent ]
I find this statement to be extremely disturbing(none / 0) (#38)
by Samaha on Tue Mar 20, 2007 at 07:52:35 AM EST

"This is why a "sunnah" can "override" the "apparent" ruling of a Qur'anic verse, since they both come from the same: Allah (subhana wa ta'ala)."

I realize that my knowledge of Islamic jurisprudence is minimal at best, but basically this particular reply reaffirms every fear that I have ever had in regards to hadiths and is very much bordering on making more of the prophet than the messenger of Allah and as repeated over and over and over again in the Quran MAN.

According to this ideaology if we do not find what we are looking for in the Quran (and apparently even if we do and are not happy with the results) we can use Sunnah to override it - still not happy?  Let's get a concensus.

Everything inside me wants to scream when I see this.  How Sunnah (man's words/actions) could override the direct word of Allah - I will never understand, moreso - isn't anyone worried about this being blasphemous?

This almost seems as though the Prophet was a vessel of divinity, in which case there should have been no need for the angel Gabriel to be delivering the divine words or for separation of Quran and Sunnah.



[ Parent ]






Jinnzaman wrote:(none / 0) (#37)
by Fahad on Tue Mar 20, 2007 at 07:39:25 AM EST
Real quick question: If God can punish apostasy in the next life, why can't he punish it in this life through human agents?
He can, but He doesn't.

[ Parent ]














Quran supporting apostate's death.(none / 0) (#66)
by Sazid on Tue Mar 20, 2007 at 05:34:47 PM EST

 First time poster here.

"The only Islamic scholar who has argued that there is a Quranic basis for the death penalty for apostasy in Allamah Mawdudi."

<><> 
I'm not so sure about that.  I think you'll find a number of Muslim scholars who believed that the Quran taught death for apostates.

<> Baidawi and ar-Razi felt that the Quran taught death for apostates.

Maulana Mufti Muhammad Shafi (Maariful Tafsir) used 2:217. 

http://www.answering-islam.org/Silas/apostasy.htm 

 

 



um(none / 0) (#67)
by Ali Eteraz on Tue Mar 20, 2007 at 10:14:27 PM EST

link's broken

not only that i already 2:217 in the post itself. the clear text of the quran makes it obvious that punishment is only in the hereafter. if uncle shafi concludes contrary to the text of the quran, it just means he's wrong.



[ Parent ]
scholars(none / 0) (#70)
by silas333 on Wed Mar 21, 2007 at 04:48:25 AM EST
I was only pointing out that there are more credible Muslim scholars than Mawdudi who held that the Quran teaches death for the apostate.<br />

[ Parent ]




answering-islam?!??(none / 0) (#68)
by Lawrence of Arabia on Tue Mar 20, 2007 at 10:37:12 PM EST
and i'm not sure i would trust a christian apologetics website meant to refute islam as a resource for the interpretation of islam.  that seems a lot like asking nancy pelosi to give us her unbiased opinon of president bush.

LoA.
Lawrence of Arabia
[ Parent ]
scholars(none / 0) (#71)
by silas333 on Wed Mar 21, 2007 at 04:53:43 AM EST
I quote liberally from Muslim and Islamic texts.&nbsp; Ali Eteraz&#39;s real argument is with them.&nbsp; When the hadith, sira, actions of the early Islamic caliphs, many credible Islamic scholars, and 4 major schools of Islamic jurisprudence all line up, I&#39;d be inclined to take their position over Ali&#39;s or a few more recent scholars.

[ Parent ]
what about this...(none / 0) (#73)
by slaveofone on Tue Jun 19, 2007 at 01:43:39 AM EST

How shall Allah guide those who reject faith after they accepted it...on them rests the curse of Allah, of his angels, and of all mankind--in that they will dwell...

--3:86a, 87b, 88a

Seems kind of hard to dwell in the curse of either Allah, angels, or mankind if one is dead.  Wouldn't killing an apostate because they are an apostate mean purposely denying a person the justice that Allah commands in the Qur'an here--namely that a person dwells in the curse?



[ Parent ]









Display: Sort: