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Sack Imam ElBayly For Promoting Death


By Editor
Posted on Mon Apr 23, 2007 at 07:44:58 AM EST
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Guest Post by Aisha

Ayaan Hirsi Ali is a nut job. Yet her clerical detractors never learn: bad press from panting fundamentalists is good press for her. Now, yet another sheikh has joined the ecclesiastical rush to beat the dead Hirsi Ali horse. In the runup to a lecture by Ali at a university near his hometown in Pennsylvania, Imam Fouad ElBayly of the Johnstown Islamic Center had this to say:

She has been identified as one who has defamed the faith. If you come into the faith, you must abide by the laws, and when you decide to defame it deliberately, the sentence is death.

He then goes on to say that of course one shouldn't expect Ali to be executed in the US; instead, she should be expedited to an Islamic country for trial and sentencing. "Islam is a very merciful religion if you try to understand it," he says.

His simpering comes too late to be in any way believable; he has already read out Ali's death sentence. It's a pathetic gesture at judicial fairness from a man who has appointed himself judge, jury and would-be executioner.

ElBayly seems unaware that there is no consensus on the death penalty for apostasy. As Ali (Eteraz) has pointed out before, the Qur'anic verses typically used to justify the death penalty are unclear, and never refer to a specific earthly punishment for apostasy.

The Amman Message, ratified by some of the most influential clerics in modern Islam and by the King of Jordan, makes it religiously unacceptable to declare any professing Muslim an apostate, no matter what sect of Islam that Muslim does (or does not) ascribe to. While, as AE observes, the Message does not go far enough to protect those who specifically renounce Islam, it has opened the door for debate on apostasy by highlighting the fact that the issue is far from resolved in Islamic law. In fact, here are 100 Muslim voices arguing against death penalty for apostasy.

The textual Islamic stance on apostasy is not the open-and-shut case that extremists like ElBayly would have us believe. It's time to start calling sheikhs like ElBayly out for their ignorance and irresponsibility. It is unacceptable for a man in a position of spiritual power to promote violence--even by proxy, as ElBayly does.

Muslims need to contact the Johnstown Islamic Center and call for Imam ElBayly to be removed. This debate is not over.

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Sack Imam ElBayly For Promoting Death | 16 comments (16 topical, 0 hidden)
No Ijma?(none / 0) (#1)
by jinnzaman on Mon Apr 23, 2007 at 10:29:30 AM EST

What's Eteraz's proof that there is no ijma on the death penalty?


Which  mujtahid imams, besides Ibn Taymiyyah, held that the  penalty for apostasy is not death?

 

 



um(none / 0) (#2)
by Ali Eteraz on Mon Apr 23, 2007 at 12:19:36 PM EST

u cant have consensus on error. that comes from a hadith upon which there is consensus (if u want to play the ijma hurling game). the dp for apostasy is erroneous as it violates quranic verses.

ur statement about taymiya deserves no resp b/c u cannot even logically accept him as a mujtahid since u believe in the suprem of the 4 schools. u r once again inconsistent.

btw now urs is a tough position to be in bc u just accepted that sum1 not in the four schools can be mujtahid. after denying it 4 weeks in every other thread.

sigh, logic. 



[ Parent ]
umm(none / 0) (#3)
by jinnzaman on Mon Apr 23, 2007 at 12:31:17 PM EST

Again, claiming there's no ijma on death penalty implies there's ikhtilaaf on ijmaa.

Your assertion is inconsistent: Are you saying that there is no ijmaa (i.e. unanimous opinion of scholars in spite of one or two isolated opinions) or are you saying that there is ijmaa, but such ijmaa is irrelevant because in your opinion, there is no evidence to support the dp for apostacy based on your understanding of the Qur'an?

With regards to Ibn Taymiyyah, as I've stated previously, having one or two scholars that differ from the majority doesn't conflict wiht ijmaa. So again, my argument is still coherent, whereas yours isn't.

If you reject ijmaa, then you cannot claim 'there is no ijmaa on this issue.' There is ijmaa, but you're dismissing it because you disagree with it.

If you feel like there's a difference of opinion on the death penalty for apostacy, then by all means, give me the names of those mujtahids who stated so. If you can't cite to any mujtahids, then there is ijmaa, but you just happen to disagree with it for personal reasons. 

Also, Ibn Taymiyyah said that the punishment for apostacy was life imprisonment, not death penalty. So even though he differed from the other mujtahids, it was only on the method of punishment, not on the punishment itself.

Do you think that their should be a punishment for apostacy at all?  



[ Parent ]




badawi(none / 0) (#4)
by Saliha Shah on Mon Apr 23, 2007 at 12:31:51 PM EST
an argument against death penalty for apostasy by jamal badawi.

[ Parent ]




Nut job?(none / 0) (#5)
by dianamoon on Mon Apr 23, 2007 at 12:38:25 PM EST

"  Ayaan Hirsi Ali is a nut job."

 

Did you actually read her book? 



why dont u(none / 0) (#6)
by Ali Eteraz on Mon Apr 23, 2007 at 12:58:04 PM EST

u go attack muslims who want to kill her

peeps really know how to fight the wrong people 



[ Parent ]


question to questioner(none / 0) (#7)
by dmz on Mon Apr 23, 2007 at 12:58:04 PM EST

Diana

The major question is: How much do you know about Islam? 

Knowing what AHA wrote in her book is one thing: Did you read it?

Knowing how she has framed Islam, participated in debate, tools for the American Enterprise Inst., and created a ridiculous play about the veil, "Submission."

She is nothing but a scandal monger at best and a nimrod of dubious intelligence who has stumbled upon a career as a simple and plain hate-monger.

In either case, any serious consideration of her or her work requires full participation by nutjobs.  

 

 



[ Parent ]




are clerical detractors trying to learn?(none / 0) (#8)
by shariq on Mon Apr 23, 2007 at 04:02:18 PM EST

I may be wrong but I think the rights and wrongs of apostasy are largely irrelevant in the Hirsi Ali/mad mullahs 'debate'.

The mullahs build up brownie points within their constituency by attacking the likes of Hirsi Ali. The actual death part isn't as shocking for the average mosque goer as killing Hirsi Ali is quite unlikely, and even if it does happen they won't have the moral responsibility of being directly involved in it. The majority of  Muslims felt the same way about the fatwa against Salman Rushdie.

Similarly every time Hirsi Ali attacks Islam, some Mullah will attack her for the above mentioned reasons giving her more brownie points with her target audience. 

 

 



Salman Rushdie fatwa(none / 0) (#9)
by dmz on Mon Apr 23, 2007 at 04:37:18 PM EST

I was very surprised when the Ayatullah Khoemeini's fatwa was basically ignored.

Add to that a $1,000,000.00 bounty!

I thought that guy was one dead poet. I heard Iranian talking about it being just a matter of time and complaining that no money should be required or paid for such a service.

Hmmm. All talk. He just laid the foundational bricks for islamophobe hacks to follow.

A fatwa should be taken seriously and when given should be followed.

If the Shah wanted that guy dead, he'd have been dead.

Still, Salman should not have been killed. Ignored would have been better justice. Now he's a d list celeb with a model wife hosting a chef reality show.

Mashallah.



[ Parent ]
to be fair(none / 0) (#10)
by Saliha Shah on Mon Apr 23, 2007 at 04:53:53 PM EST
d list or not, his wife is pretty cute.

[ Parent ]


Salman Rushdie(none / 0) (#11)
by Danial on Mon Apr 23, 2007 at 05:51:40 PM EST

He isn't as bad as other Muslims make him out to be.



[ Parent ]


Also...(none / 0) (#13)
by Danial on Mon Apr 23, 2007 at 09:31:16 PM EST
I do recall that Alija Izzetbegovic (a man who was himself jailed for his Islamic teachings) was also against killing Salman Rushdie as well. Something to think about.

[ Parent ]






okay(none / 0) (#12)
by Daniel Haar on Mon Apr 23, 2007 at 06:12:25 PM EST

Salman Rushdie -- haven't read him yet, but he's harmless to Islam.  Oh I know he has bashed the religion a bit, but I give him a free pass since the whole death-fatwa thingy.  Was the fatwa harmless?  Well, at least one of his translators were murdered, so I'm not too sure about that.

Hirsi Ali?  I think she's lame, but seriously, that was hardly the point of the post, so why waste time over it?

Now to the real issue:  Jinnzaman, did you read the list of over 100 scholars who denied that apostasy receives the death penalty in Islam?  Did you?  If so, you must explain why you think that none of the scholars listed are/were mujtahids.  If you criterion for why they are denied mujtahid status is that they denied the supposed consensus on the punishment for apostasy, then you lose -- it's circular reasoning!





he ratified it, too(none / 0) (#14)
by paranoun on Tue Apr 24, 2007 at 08:08:52 AM EST

i find the most interesting bit of information in this article is the that the king of jordan 'ratified' the 'message of Amman' too.

 



Amman Message(none / 0) (#15)
by Sabir on Tue Apr 24, 2007 at 04:28:13 PM EST

He didn't just ratify it; his name is all over the thing. He apparently has no clue how he and his government are viewed outside his circle of friends. It's almost as if he actually considers himself some kind of Islamic hero. The Amman Message is a great endeavor, but the prominence of the Jordanian government's involvement with it will probably prevent it from being taken seriously. And that's a shame. 

This is part of the reason why the Salafi movement has been so effective. Saudi-sponsored institutions are smart enough not to broadcast their benefactors' names to the entire world.



[ Parent ]
sabi(none / 0) (#16)
by paranoun on Wed Apr 25, 2007 at 09:36:14 AM EST

do you suppose he is attempting to legitimize his position as a leader by leaning on the 'supposed' connection he has with the prophet's family?  

it appears from the current trend, Turkey as an example, religion would be the card of the future.  i have a feeling he is polishing his shoes more to be the man of the future.

 where are you, Condi?



[ Parent ]






Sack Imam ElBayly For Promoting Death | 16 comments (16 topical, 0 hidden)

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